[WTP] Quick questions

[historix69]

about slaves: this will not happen, otherwise the whole meaning of this game unit is lost. especially since the mechanics of gaining freedom through hard physical labor already exist.

Without a proper economic simulation with salaries and upkeep, all colonists are like "slaves" and work for free in exchange for 2 food per turn, the only difference is that they do not flee/revolt (except for criminals and servants). There is no reason why to use an african slave when you can have (free) colonists or indentured servants instead who can learn from natives or by education and then are more productive.
Only benefit for slaves is that initially they might be cheaper than buying colonists from the menu, however colonists from the docks are also very cheap at the start of the game and after buying some slaves in africa the prices go up as well. I usually only buy the 6 slaves for the achivement which returns the invested money.
If slaves would work much harder than other colonists, e.g. +50% or +100% yields on certain tiles, they might be more attractive. Or if they could work as pioneers.

 

[raystuttgart]

@historix69
You ask a lot of good questions considering Yields.

But most of the time my answer would be:

• I have not yet thought about that - it is actually a feature of its own
• I first need to finish my current work - then I may think about new concepts
• Once I have finsihed more of the actual implementation, I will test balancing and then decide
• Such details do not need to be decided now because too much is going to change until then anyways
• I still have more ideas (e.g. even more Yields) but I am rather cautious already - so probably not in "Yields" (but maybe in "Crime and Law")
• ...

In other words, it is too early for such discussions from my side.
(And I rather spend time implementing than discussing.)

I still have about half a year of work ahead before "Yields" will actually be finished.
So discussing 1 year or more into the future and speculating is currently not very attractive for me.

Once "Yields" is fully implemented we have to test balancing and adjust accordingly anyways.
Also I am currently in a "highly experimental mood", meaning if I have an idea I like I simply implement.

I currently simply prefer to work and show my results or prototypes instead of having long discussions what I plan to do.
(Also I do not want to end up in endless discussions about unimportant balancing details before having tried a first fully playable version.)

Summary:
Please have some patience and let me finish a first beta-version of "Yields".
But trust me, I will keep the community updated about my progress.

----

I fully understand that people are curious.
But why not simply lean back and get surprised?

 

[Mr. ZorG]

If slaves would work much harder than other colonists, e.g. +50% or +100% yields on certain tiles, they might be more attractive. Or if they could work as pioneers.

outside the colony, slaves work better than any "free colonist". +50% or +100% to their productivity will lead to an imbalance.
you only think about improving one thing (no matter what, any), but this improvement will lead to an imbalance and the whole game will need to be debugged.
so as Ray said let's wait until the end of the current work and when there is a topic like "let's think about what else can be added to the mod", write this proposal there.

 

[raystuttgart]

5. It's hard to find a complete list of all 96 commodities in the respective thread.

Here it is, but let us please not start a huge discussion about it.

This is what you will get in "Yields", after that we may see.
(e.g. "Crime and Law" will add at least 2 more Yields: "YIELD_CRIME" and "YIELD_LAW".)

Spoiler :

1. YIELD_FOOD,
2. YIELD_LUMBER,
3. YIELD_HARDWOOD,
4. YIELD_STONE,
5. YIELD_CLAY,
6. YIELD_HEMP,
7. YIELD_FLAX,
8. YIELD_ORE,
9. YIELD_COAL,
10. YIELD_PEAT,
11. YIELD_SHEEP,
12. YIELD_GOATS,
13. YIELD_PIGS,
14. YIELD_CATTLE,
15. YIELD_CHICKEN,
16. YIELD_GEESE,
17. YIELD_HORSES,
18. YIELD_COCOA_FRUITS,
19. YIELD_COFFEE_BERRIES,
20. YIELD_PEANUTS,
21. YIELD_MILK,
22. YIELD_TOBACCO,
23. YIELD_YERBA_LEAVES,
24. YIELD_COTTON,
25. YIELD_INDIGO,
26. YIELD_LOGWOOD,
27. YIELD_COCHINEAL,
28. YIELD_WOOL,
29. YIELD_GOAT_HIDES,
30. YIELD_PIG_SKIN,
31. YIELD_HIDES,
32. YIELD_DOWNS,
33. YIELD_FUR,
34. YIELD_PREMIUM_FUR,
35. YIELD_RAW_SALT,
36. YIELD_RED_PEPPER,
37. YIELD_VANILLA_PODS,
38. YIELD_BARLEY,
39. YIELD_SUGAR,
40. YIELD_FRUITS,
41. YIELD_GRAPES,
42. YIELD_OLIVES,
43. YIELD_RAPE,
44. YIELD_WHALE_BLUBBER,
45. YIELD_VALUABLE_WOOD,
46. YIELD_TRADE_GOODS,
47. YIELD_ROPE,
48. YIELD_SAILCLOTH,
49. YIELD_TOOLS,
50. YIELD_BLADES,
51. YIELD_MUSKETS,
52. YIELD_CANNONS,
53. YIELD_WILD_FEATHERS,
54. YIELD_SILVER,
55. YIELD_GOLD,
56. YIELD_GEMS,
57. YIELD_RICE,
58. YIELD_CASSAVA,
59. YIELD_COCA_LEAVES,
60. YIELD_MAPLE_SIRUP,
61. YIELD_KAUTSCHUK,
62. YIELD_COCOA,
63. YIELD_COFFEE,
64. YIELD_ROASTED_PEANUTS,
65. YIELD_CHEESE,
66. YIELD_CIGARS,
67. YIELD_YERBA_TEA,
68. YIELD_CLOTH,
69. YIELD_COLOURED_CLOTH,
70. YIELD_FESTIVE_CLOTHES,
71. YIELD_WOOL_CLOTH,
72. YIELD_COLOURED_WOOL_CLOTH,
73. YIELD_EVERYDAY_CLOTHES,
74. YIELD_PIG_LEATHER,
75. YIELD_LEATHER,
76. YIELD_GOAT_HIDE_BOOTS,
77. YIELD_PADDED_LEATHER_COATS,
78. YIELD_COATS,
79. YIELD_PREMIUM_COATS,
80. YIELD_SALT,
81. YIELD_SPICES,
82. YIELD_VANILLA,
83. YIELD_CHOCOLATE,
84. YIELD_BEER,
85. YIELD_RUM,
86. YIELD_HOOCH,
87. YIELD_WINE,
88. YIELD_OLIVE_OIL,
89. YIELD_RAPE_OIL,
90. YIELD_WHALE_OIL,
91. YIELD_POTTERY,
92. YIELD_FURNITURE,
93. YIELD_PADDED_FURNITURE,
94. YIELD_FIELD_WORKER_TOOLS,
95. YIELD_HOUSEHOLD_GOODS,
96. YIELD_LUXURY_GOODS,
97. YIELD_HAMMERS,
98. YIELD_BELLS,
99. YIELD_CROSSES,
100. YIELD_CULTURE,
101. YIELD_HEALTH,
102. YIELD_EDUCATION,
103. YIELD_HAPPINESS,
104. YIELD_UNHAPPINESS

 

[devolution]

by the way, @devolution, now I understand why I see so many civilian AI units moving aimlessly around the map between colonies. your cheat for AI is to blame for this) I think this opportunity needs to be somehow reduced, at least by half.

This is what I implemented: In the early game the AI will hurry colonists from the docks since the main limiting factor is getting a productive population ASAP. Later on, as the cities start to develop and are able to grow new population on their own, the hurrying stops. There is an "unemployment detector" that detect idle colonists and this mechanism is what stops the hurrying.

You are correct in your observation that AI cities have hordes of unemployed colonists that are seemingly hanging out in the city plot as we approach the late-game. The primary culprit here is the food\growth mechanic that makes it way too easy to pop-boom (a term from earlier civ games and Alpha Centauri) in which AI cities often can produce a new colonist every turn.
To rectify this degenerated gameplay, I favor an exponential mechanism like implemented in Civ2..6 that makes citizens eat progressively more food based on the city size. Alternatively (and perhaps complimentary) we should also consider nerfing the food tile yields and all the "stackable" multipliers that affect growth. IMHO the game has never been (re)balanced around the 2-plot radius and the full effect of stacked modifiers.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

I favor an exponential mechanism like implemented in Civ2..6 that makes citizens eat progressively more food based on the city size

I think this has already been discussed somewhere. I propose to return to this discussion after the publication of Plains)

 

[historix69]

@raystuttgart
Thanks for your reply ...
I did not intend to start a long discussion on the topics, just wanted to check if you have plans for these topics and - if not - mention them so that they can be considered for future content.
Thanks for the list.

As a side note :
My idea on slave trade and sugar plantations (in the west indies) is based on the books :
Alan Taylor - "American Colonies, The settling of North America" and
Alan Taylor - "American Revolutions, A Continental History, 1750-1804"

 

[devolution]

your cheat for AI

I just wanted to point out that this is not a cheat since the AI uses the same hurry/purchase mechanism as the player and thus pays the same price (modified by the handicap ofc)

 

[raystuttgart]

your cheat for AI

As devolution already tried to explain, that is simply "AI decision logic".

He tries to teach AI when it would be good to hurry Units which Human Player can do as well.
And as he said, AI then pays the same pries for hurrying as Human Player then would.

-----------

"AI cheats" would be something different e.g. implementations like these:

• AI can hurry for half price
• AI gets a Unit for free every 10 turns
• AI gets free Crosses each turn for Immigration
• ...

But stuff like that has become rare in our mod.
It was much more common in Vanilla actually.

-----------

Us programmers telling AI how to decide in certain situations is necessary.
How do you think should AI logic work otherwise if the code does not make decisions for AI?

Summary:
Do not confuse "AI decision logic" with "AI cheats".
As long as the "costs" and "benefits" are the same for AI it is not a cheat.

 

[historix69]

AI logic could decide for itself
- if AI had full knowledge of the game rules and so could compare consequences when hurrying a unit from the docks (may not only be cheaper but also does not increase unit price) compared to purchasing a unit from the menu or
- if AI would collect and analyse data from its games (experience) to deduce the game rules, e.g. by comparing all values in the europe screen before and after a unit purchase, to find that hurrying does not increase unit price.

In general - if there are already many crosses accumulated - hurrying an expensive specialist from the docks saves more money than hurrying a cheap one.
However the 4 colonists on the docks are guarantied, so AI and player can always come back later and pick up a colonist they do not need right now.

Can the implemented AI decide which of the 4 colonists on the docks would be the most useful to add to the colonies or to found a new colony nearby considering all the other colonists in colonies and on the map? Sometimes it is better to just buy some more lumber, tools, horses, muskets, etc or hurry a building instead of adding another colonists which has no place in any colony until food, happyness, health, security or tiles are improved.

 

[raystuttgart]

AI logic could decide for itself

Sorry but I think you misunderstand the term AI considering Civ4Col.

AI actually "knows basically nothing", it is a stupid secquence of C++ lines.
Thus AI is also not really able to e.g. plan strategically or anything like that.

It is not some thinking, planning, understanding, learning entity like a Human.
Instead it simply reacts on the data we feed into its decision logic - normal C++ code.

Our logic simply tells the AI which choice to make or how to react in certain situations.
The logic simply checks input parameters and based on that the according algorithm makes its output choice.

if AI had full knowledge of the game rules

As I said, I think you do not understand what AI in terms of games like Civ4Col means.
You most likely saw a bit too many modern movies "about superintelligent self learning human like AIs".

The AI in this game is simple lots and lots and lots of if / else, switch, for-loops, while-loops, weight calculations, ...
It is a huge sum of decision logics that programmers like @devolution, myself and others have implemented.

-----

So let us please not start "philosophical discussions" about what AI logic should work like.
It is complete non-sense to compare AIs from Sci-Fi movies to the AI of an old game like Civ4BTS / Civ4Col.

-----

The programmers that are and have been working on WTP AI logic know what they do and why they do it.
Because they have actually already written quite a lot of AI logic of this game and actually understand how Civ4Col AI works.

There is really little point of non-programmers trying to tell experienced programmers how to improve AI logic.
(Writing good AI logic is probably one of the most difficult things at all in Civ4Col modding.)

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I am not speaking about inflation.

The problem is that different actions to achive the same result lead to different world status.
- buy 10 indentured servants from the docks and prices for indentured servants stay low
- buy 10 indentured servants from the menu and prices skyrocket and affect the price of indentured servants on the docks as well, so for the rest of the game you no longer can hurry cheap indentured servants on the docks.

Each purchase via the menu in europe screen adds a permanent cost increase penalty both for the menu as well as the docks. So the best strategy is to NEVER purchase from the menu if you want to keep prices low on the docks. And this makes the specialist menu in Europe almost obsolete.

[/QUOTE]
That is WAD.
The people standing on the dock are "discounted". They are usually much cheaper than the experts you can buy in Europe, because those at the docks are not simply seeking a good new job and asking for an approbiate fee to leave their work in Europe - they are discontent, suppressed by religious laws and in part activeley fleeing Europe to the New World for the religious tolerance they hope to find there that has been promised to them by the crosses that the colonies produce.

So they are two very different groups of people.
Those at the docks, mainly hoping to get to the New World for religious freedom - which you either get for free if you produce much more crosses, or which you can hurry a bit for a few dollars more - and those who live in Europe, are content to stay there and are experts in their jobs who could be convinced by money (and lots and always more of it) to perform their craft in the colonies.

Once the prices for experts from Europe become too high you should already have built schools to train your own in your colony in addition to the random expert on the docks.

Inflation on the other side would be a general cost increase affecting all prices based on the amount of gold, silver and treasures brought to europe in relation to european economy and population. So you pay more but you should also receive more money for your other sells to europe as long as you not flood the market. With increasing population in europe and increasing economy (affected by your colonial trade) towards industrial revolution, the inflationary aspect should become less significant.

Lots of the silver from the Spanish Empire actually went to east asia to buy exotic goods there which could then be sold in the colonies or europe.
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_galleon

Asia is not part of WtP

 

[historix69]

Talking about self-lerning AI was more general speaking. I did not expect such an AI in the game since this would likely heavily affect times for AI turns, CPU and RAM usage, harddisk space to store AI data (experience), etc ... and if a player changes game rules by editing an XML file, the AI probably would have to start anew with everything.
I usually also do not watch SciFi-AI-movies ...

"There is really little point of non-programmers tryign to tell experienced programmers how to improve AI logic."
You should do a poll how many Civ or Col players are actually non-programmers ... it is a difference if someone has not yet looked into the coding of col AI or if they don't know how to code at all ...

 

[StMikael]

One thing i wonder about nation specific ship names, which is a great addition to the game and really gets my immersion going ...

Would it be possible to transfer these names to the regular Civ4 game? Just copy the section with ship names from WTP's Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml and paste it into BTS' Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml?

I haven't tried it yet, but I doubt it. There is probably some deeper logic (python stuff) behind this?

 

[raystuttgart]

Would it be possible to transfer these names to the regular Civ4 game?

No, you cannot copy XML sniplets like that without also merging according DLL code and also XML-Schema.
(If you tried it would more or less instantly crash the game or at least give you endless amounts of XML-errors.)

It is a feature I had programmed for TAC by the way but the code is actually pretty simple.
Everybody is free to check the code of our DLL and merge it to Civ4BTS.

If you know how to programm C++ look for these comments in the code of WTP:
// TAC - Ship Names - Ray - Start

It is just about 14 places in the code in 5 files that need to be adapted - it is not really much effort.
It is a good practice actually for somebody wanting to learn DLL-programming because the code is also pretty simple.

 

[historix69]

A question about growth of native settlements :
How do they grow in size? Do they use food like the europeans, eg 200/600 food per new pop or do they use a different game mechanic?
Is it ok to buy food from them or will this block their population growth?
Does a trade post speed up population growth in native settlements?

And a question about (expert) trade posts :
Expert traders have a higher chance to establish a trade post than normal traders.
I also noticed that frequency for treasures from native tradeposts goes up with size of the native settlement.
Does the expert status of the trader also increase frequency for treasures from a native tradepost?
If yes : how much is the difference?

 

[pichulo_]

Hello! First of all, kudos to the modders for keeping up this amazing mod!
I was wondering if it would be possible to have some way to copy the settings for the import/export screen from one settlement to another, or create "templates" so we could apply the same settings to several settlements without going through all the resources.
I have been looking at BUTTONPOPUP_YIELD_IMPORT_EXPORT in CvDLLButtonPopup but couldn't figure out how to do it. If you could give me some pointers i will try my hand at it.
Thanks!

 

[JohnAdamski]

I have WTP on my pc and laptop and experience a crash nearly every time I play. On PC: No specific turn or set of actions, it’s seemingly random, but I would say it happens 1/8 times I play for over an hour.

Laptop: it crashes around the 1600-1650 somewhere. I saved one game the turn before it crashes and it kept crashing at the same turn every time I tried to restart it.

I do not know what could be causing it but I think there is an issue with the laptop one and the pc one might just be a fluke thing. Anyone see something like this before?

 

[raystuttgart]

I have WTP on my pc and laptop and experience a crash nearly every time I play.

For that we have a thread for bug reporting.

------------

Generally:

1. Yes, we have bugs in WTP 3.0.1 (last official release) that can cause a CTD.
2. With a probability of 90% it is already fixed internally - but still verifiying this would be wise.
3. Thus it would be good if you report it in the thread for bug reporting. (with save file)
4. Otherwise we modders at one point simply have to publish a release - with all our bugfixes
5. We can not promise any ETA for a release ... because it requires enough modders motivated to do so

------------

Otherwise I do not know what to say about a bug report.
Bugs have to be analyzed and fixed.

Everything else I can say about it is this pretty useless comment ...
(... which I have already repeated endless times.)

Spoiler :

We simply have not managed to publish a release since 1,5+ years.
Thus we get reported the same bugs again and again and again and ... although they are already fixed.

And it is nobody`s fault specifically - it is more that there is real life and other things having higher priority.
Thus nobody of us has been motivated enough to take care of managing / coordinating an official release.

Coordinating and publishing a release is quite some effort that currently nobody seems to be interested to invest.
That is the simply truth ... no need to find unnecessary excuses ... we mod for free and thus only for fun.

And even if there is one person taking the lead to coordinate the stuff that would be necessary, he could not take the effort alone.
He would need other team members to e.g. create Maps, write texts, help testing, do bugfixing, ...

As long as there is no strong "team" again that shares effort for publishing a release, I doubt it will happen soon.
We are either successful together or we fail together ... a mod is always a team effort.

 

[JohnAdamski]

Thanks for the response. Has there been an effort to compensate the mods for their work? I know it’s largely done out of passion for the development, but surely there is some incentive that could be offered to a) get help for the leads, and b) offer some semblance of gratitude to guys like you and many others I don’t know for this incredible mod.

What would the monetary goal be to complete the update you are working on now? Mainly out of curiosity to understand the time commitment, but on the off chance I can kick in an amount that would be meaningful, I would gladly do so.

If I knew anything about helping from the development side I would do that in a heartbeat because I’m very passionate about this mod.

Thanks,
John Quincy Adams