[NFP] [1.0.8.4] Cultists and their Relics are bugged beyond belief

Silmarillion

Chieftain
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Hello. This is my first thread in Bug Reports, so I apologize if I do something incorrectly here. But what I just witnessed over the last few turns regarding Cultists and their Relics of the Void went so far beyond the normal brokenness of the game (like the "Stop asking me" for Friendships not working) that I just had to document it.

Okay so, I hadn't used Cultists for many weeks, but in my most recent game, I decided to give them a shot when Gaul plopped down a City in a spot I really wanted (in my save, Lisieux in the North-West of the minimap). Over about a dozen turns, I shovelled about twenty Cultists into the hungry maw of that 2-Pop-City, but nothing happened, with the City's Loyalty always remaining at zero. Since I have no idea how Loyalty works, that wouldn't have been enough to report it as a bug... but then I finally noticed that all those tasty Relics of the Void that I allegedly got... never appeared in my Cities (which all should have space for them, obviously, with the Obelisks).

Well, that's not exactly true. I did actually receive two Relics out of the twenty or so, in my two nearest cities to the Cultist Carnage, Calcutta and Kyoto. But apparently, each time I "received" a new Relic, it just overwrites one of those two. You can see that for yourself: in my save, there's the Relic of the Sightless Worm in Kyoto, and I have a Cultist with one charge remaining next to Lisieux. If you use that last charge, you receive the Relic "Hint Guide: Civilization II" (which would make me laugh under different circumstances) in Kyoto, overwriting the Sightless Worm. Apparently, this had been happening with all those twenty Cultists, but I hadn't noticed at the time.

So, am I just overlooking some basic mechanic, because I'm an idiot? Do the Relics have only a tiny radius in which a city can get them? Did this happen because a couple of turns before this, I manually placed one of the Relics in my St. Peter's Cathedral, in a very distant, different City?

That was a lot of text, sorry. I hope this might be helpful or at least entertaining to somebody.
 

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Hi

Did you generate the cultists from the cities where the relics appear? Maybe the relic only appear where they were constructed.


...:eek::eek::eek: Holy crap, yes :undecide: Awesome question.

:confused: Is that a known Thing that I was too stupid to read in some description of something? That Cultists are bound to their birth city like archaeologists? Very possible. If so, I deeply apologize.
 
Well no need to apologize, IF that is the explanation, it should be mentionned here:
upload_2021-1-5_17-24-18.png


as it is here:
upload_2021-1-5_17-24-44.png


I guess maybe you can move the relics before they are replaced? Wouldn't be practical but...

Also note that there are two types of Old God Obelisks, when you unlock a hero you have more space (2 relics and 1 art), e.g. here for Lille and Paris, when Rennes and Reims only have one slot:

upload_2021-1-5_17-27-35.png
 
Good of you to show that great works screenie, especially for Lille. Ever since Heroes came out, I had never used the Voidsingers because I had heard they overwrote the heroic relics. Glad to see that isn't the case.
 
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Overwriting relics sounds like a bug. As long as you have space anywhere, new relicts should go there. If you don't have space, no relict should be created (and you just should keep your old ones blocking all the spaces...)

Regarding city flipping with Cultists...I believe I have read here somewhere on the forum that this only works vs. cities that have an already existing negative loyalty per turn, so that your cultist use (=bringing them to 0 loyalty at the end of your turn) creates also the situation that they stay at 0 loyalty during the interturn. I haven't tested that theory and if it is true, I have no idea whether it is WAI or a bug, but that information could be perhaps used to narrow down a potential issue.
 
Good of you to show that great works screenie, especially for Lille. Ever since Heroes came out, I had never used the Voidsingers because I had heard they overwrote the heroic relics. Glad to see that isn't the case.
Actually these are 2 heroic relics I bought from the AI. This may have prevented me from getting my own 2nd heroic relic, with the lack of space.
There is no voidsinger relic on that screenshot. I will provide one soon.

I'm trying Neutralize governor + Foment Unrest + 5 cultists to get that city (Brazil is in dark age)

upload_2021-1-6_11-22-19.png
 
Overwriting relics sounds like a bug. As long as you have space anywhere, new relicts should go there. If you don't have space, no relict should be created (and you just should keep your old ones blocking all the spaces...)
The Civopedia clearly states that Relics Of The Void are created in the Home City of the dead cultist. So not an actual bug, merely the way it is - otherwise it would be stupidly OP'd

Regarding city flipping with Cultists...I believe I have read here somewhere on the forum that this only works vs. cities that have an already existing negative loyalty per turn, so that your cultist use (=bringing them to 0 loyalty at the end of your turn) creates also the situation that they stay at 0 loyalty during the interturn. I haven't tested that theory and if it is true, I have no idea whether it is WAI or a bug, but that information could be perhaps used to narrow down a potential issue.
This is exactly right - with positive loyalty in the 'target' city, the positive component is added before your turn, so much more difficult to pull off. Again, this is as it should be otherwise it would be way too OP'd.
What can work is a huge number of cultists - pick off the cities on the edges first, and try to reduce the positive loyalty on the main targets before attempting the 'big flip' - if they have as little as -1 per turn, you can pull the flip off.
 
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The Civopedia clearly states that Relics Of The Void are created in the Home City of the dead cultist. So not an actual bug, merely the way it is - otherwise it would be stupidly OP'd

Do you remember where the civilopedia exactly states that? I looked in the mode entry for Secret Socities, the Cultist one and the one for the Obelisk and couldn't find anything about that restriction.

And even if it should mentioned somewhere and it should be intended that you need a free relic slot in the city the Cultist is from (which I agree would be good for balance), this doesn't rule out a bug here - not getting more relics doesn't necessarily mean that they must "overwrite" existing ones. Why not just disable relict generation in that case? That would be BTW even better for balance - as "overwriting" (likely) destroys a potential relic for other Voidsingers civs, while just not generating one leaves one more for them.

This is exactly right - with positive loyalty in the 'target' city, the positive component is added before your turn, so much more difficult to pull off. Again, this is as it should be otherwise it would be way too OP'd. What can work is a huge number of cultists - pick off the cities on the edges first, and try to reduce the positive loyalty on the main targets before attempting the 'big flip' - if they have as little as -1 per turn, you can pull the flip off.

Agree on balance, but then we are looking still at a serious AI problem here (regardless if they don't use them at all or just "waste" them all by throwing them one cities with rising loyalty)
 
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Do you remember where the civilopedia exactly states that? I looked in the mode entry for Secret Socities, the Cultist one and the one for the Obelisk and couldn't find anything about that restriction.

And even if it should mentioned somewhere and it should be intended that you need a free relic slot in the city the Cultist is from (which I agree would be good for balance), this doesn't rule out a bug here - not getting more relics doesn't necessarily mean that they must "overwrite" existing ones. Why not just disable relict generation in that case? That would be BTW even better for balance - as "overwriting" (likely) destroys a potential relic for other Voidsingers civs, while just not generating one leaves one more for them.

Agree on balance, but then we are looking still at a serious AI problem here (regardless if they don't use them at all or just "waste" them all by throwing them one cities with rising loyalty)

I'm absolutely not disputing this is bugged (not really a big surprise, as every time we get a new NFP download we get a whole heap of bugs (aka 'badly thought out mechanics'?) along for the ride.
I'll find the bit about the relic being created 'in the cultist's Home City' (which IIRC is how it is worded)
 

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I'll find the bit about the relic being created 'in the cultist's Home City' (which IIRC is how it is worded)

I would understand this wording the same way...if I would found it anywhere :confused: The Cultist article (see 4th post of this thread for a pic) just says "...its devoted sacrifice awards the player a Relic of the Void", the Obelisk one just states that it has a slot valid for any type of great work and the one about secret socities just mentions that Voidsingers are "about Relics". I also double-checked the release changelog, the Firaxis vid for the Ethiopia DLC and the tooltip for the corresponding Voidsinger gov title - nothing in this direction.
 
Ok so here what I found out about Cultists:
  1. A relic generated by a Cultist goes to the home city of that Cultist. BUT if you have a temple for example, the relic will go there, so probably as long as you have slots in that city it won't replace anything. However, once full, it does replace the relic of the Old God Obelisk (you have to move a relic away into another city BEFORE the cultist dies // NB: he can die also being attacked, not just being out of charges)
  2. A single Basic Cultist cannot go make a loyal city become independant very easily. You have to combine it with Spies (Neutralize Governor if there is one, Foment Unrest). You may also wait for the late ages and make projects to increase their power but it takes so much production!!! really not sure that's worth it versus spies (although, I was playing the Black Queen). That much production would better go to a Science or military victory I guess.
  3. Basic Cultist can make unloyalty of a rival city much worse if it's just beginning to be unloyal. It won't make much difference if it's close from independance already. Examples with -12 loyalty cultists (only one project completed):
    1. City will flip in 114 turns becomes 23 turns after 1 cultist charge.
    2. 13 turns > 12 turns > 11 turns after each Cultist charge. Better wait unless you are in a big hurry.
You can play with that in the attached save.


Here a little story of how they could make a big difference in 1 turn after a spy started the revolt for independance:

Spoiler Screenshots :

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This isn't just a problem with cultist relics. I had my heroic relic of hercules overwritten (with Voidsingers) by a regular religious relic, despite having *tons* of slots it could have gone into. Didn't notice it until turns later (more turns than autosaves, sadly), but my oldest auto-save has just one religious relic and the heroic relic is already gone.
 
This isn't just a problem with cultist relics. I had my heroic relic of hercules overwritten (with Voidsingers) by a regular religious relic, despite having *tons* of slots it could have gone into. Didn't notice it until turns later (more turns than autosaves, sadly), but my oldest auto-save has just one religious relic and the heroic relic is already gone.
Yup - sadly this is the way it is supposed to be. I have pointed out before that I saw this written somewhere (initially I mistakenly said it was in the civopedia, but that was bad info & incorrect) as being on purpose - all cultists & heroic relics always go to the unit's home city. I only wish I could remember where I saw this information....
 
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Hercules relic was created first, and overwritten by a religious relic (not fixed to a city, but there were a ton of slots in the city) that didn't even get placed in the *same building*. I'm not sure how moving it would have helped.
 
Hi,

Should be fixed as of the January 2021 1.0.9.9 update. From the patch notes:
  • Hero Relics will appear in the next available city if a Hero’s home city is full.
 
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