[Vote] (1-09) Remove Malus From Healing Promotion

[ma_kuh]

Voting "don't care" is still an important vote. It means either outcome is acceptable, and serves to achieve the minimum number of votes.

If an option receives at least 10 votes in favor and more votes than any other option, it will be selected. If "no changes" got the most votes, nothing happens. If an option for changes got the most votes, it will be added to the next release of Vox Populi once the coding work for it is complete. Ties will be broken by Recursive.

(emphasis mine)

We're having good turn out so that minimum isn't a factor right now, but not voting is not the same as voting neutral.

 

[Dimmy]

No no I mean I hope you vote for all proposals you want to see implemented and against the ones you don't want to see! I think one should not be able to vote for the only 2 options avail that's all! Please vote and help the community!

 

[nekokon]

Voting "don't care" is still an important vote. It means either outcome is acceptable, and serves to achieve the minimum number of votes.
We're having good turn out so that minimum isn't a factor right now, but not voting is not the same as voting neutral.

I'm of another opinion. If you don't care/don't have any interest, it's better to not vote to avoid creating extra work and potential problem later.
Voting for both would mean there's interest in the subject, but neither the change nor the original are acceptable, and we need to talk more about a better solution rather than just approve the slightly higher votes option.
We should have used a 2/3 approval rule instead of 50%

 

[Agiwan]

I'm of another opinion. If you don't care/don't have any interest, it's better to not vote to avoid creating extra work and potential problem later.
Voting for both would mean there's interest in the subject, but neither the change nor the original are acceptable, and we need to talk more about a better solution rather than just approve the slightly higher votes option.
We should have used a 2/3 approval rule instead of 50%

For me neutral is "Both are acceptable" (so I am ok for both) and not "Both are bad". Perhaps we need some clarifications ?

 

[InkAxis]

However, the underline issue is that for a melee unit, taking healing promotions not only means they don't have other promos that make them better at both attacking and defending, they also become weaker while defending. For a melee unit this just pointless as their main role is as a wall to protect units that have range or mobility.

Maybe medic is bad for melee units, but honestly it's pretty good for ranged units.

You only talk about melee units, so I want to clarify, this would affect all units right? Including ranged units?

 

[nekokon]

Might ask @Recursive , but based on the rule we need a minimum amounts of votes to make sure there're enough ppl who are interested in the proposal, it's more logical that if you're not interested in either option, don't vote (better to leave as is to save effort). The multi votes was added solely for more than 3 choices poll, not for these yes/no poll.

 

[ma_kuh]

My philosophy on this change is that I'd rather normalize to no penalty on Medic, then rebalance the healing amount during ratification. I trust others' experience and the sample numbers enough to think that Medic is probably not weak right now, even strong, but it definitely has a perception that it is weak. Removing that perception, then balancing the numbers accordingly is a good process and direction.

 

[Stalker0]

medic is one of the most essential promotions in the game right now on higher difficulties. It needs no buff.

 

[InkAxis]

medic is one of the most essential promotions in the game right now on higher difficulties. It needs no buff.

Do you use it on melee units though? Maybe next VP Congress session this can be changed just for melee

 

[Stalker0]

Do you use it on melee units though? Maybe next VP Congress session this can be changed just for melee

I do not, and if I didn't make range units that could be a problem. But....I do make ranged units.

If people want to remove medic from melee units I could respect that. But we don't need to buff an already good promotion just to make it useful on more than two lines (recon/ranged).

 

[nekokon]

Medic is currently good enough it doesn't need a buff onto its own. I only brought up the issue with medic in the first place because it doesn't sync well with other unit lines (like delaying uber promotions on ranged, or reduce tanking strength of melee) despite being on all unit lines, thus I suggested a new civilian line for it.
Now though, skirmisher can serve quite well as fast/flanking support/medic and I'm already ok with it as is and maybe remove medic from other lines except recon so newbie won't step on them accidently and find the mis-synergy.

 

[pineappledan]

Big hard No for me.

The math is clear, even on melee it’s not that much of a malus and faster unit healing is a powerful bonus. This promo does not need a buff.

 

[ma_kuh]

For some reason I want to try so many permutations for this change specifically...

1. Revert Medic I to only heal surrounding, like in vanilla (instead of self too).
2. Remove the malus but reduce healing to 3 per turn.
3. Leave the malus as a control.
4. Make "promos with -15% while defending" an entire suite of themed non-frontline/supply line options, stuff like mini-generals (+5% leadership), medics, ability to build forts and roads (a la Legionnaire).

 

[Legen]

If I recall correctly, the reason why Medic got the CS penalty was due to its interaction with March, which also had no penalty at the time. March + Medic II was the optimal combo for a time, and both promotions got penalties to limit it.

I think it was overkill, though. Instead of having melee units affording to take only one of them, you end with melee units avoiding both of them.

 

[Phantom1tr]

What about a completely seperate "Medic" civilian unit that can heal instead of a promotion? It could have an ability that consumes the unit upon use much like how the great generals build a citadel. Is that something that would be viable and easily implemented? Mind you that I don't have any experience with Lua but that seems like a better idea compared to just a promotion

 

[Slyceth]

Big hard No for me.

The math is clear, even on melee it’s not that much of a malus and faster unit healing is a powerful bonus. This promo does not need a buff.

The problem is different play styles. Especially when having a couple of strong units the healing doesn't happen fast enough to warrant keeping track of where the healing units are and placing them in the middle of your army. You might take a city in 20 turns, or you might have an army diving into another city because it's just too tight an area to fit your entire army
I've encountered many games where sea based units are not viable because of the ai's strong naval presence. (I proposed rebalancing or adding more naval diversity so you can't just win the sea by having 30 melee ships) So having a large land army is a faster way to take a city than first achieving naval superiority. But this means crawling through tight 1 tile spaces sometimes, one unit at a time, which is terrible for the healing promotion, when you would rather work towards the "heal every turn despite action" or " shoot over obstacles/one extra tile away" promotions, especially in those tight spaces.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.