(1-NS) Rotating slot for World Congress proposals

[balparmak]

Currently three civs can propose in each session, determined by the host status and delegate count. In most cases this ends in the host (who usually leads in delegates), the second-most and third-most civs being able to propose.

I found this system lacking in dynamism, and it prevents half (or more) civs from using an engaging mechanic. I propose turning the third slot into a rotating one, wherein all civs will have a chance to propose when it's their turn. While less than ideal, the order can be determined by the simple turn order (skipping the already proposing members), initially starting from the civ with third-most delegates. It makes sense thematically through parallels with the rotating members of the UN security council.

Sanctioned members are skipped for the third slot, but they may still propose if they're the host or have the second most delegates.

 

[ma_kuh]

I like this idea a lot, but I think there's several corner cases that would need to be figured out before implementing.

1. When delegate counts change, how do you resolve who is on the edge? If you drop from #2 to #3, do you get your "free rotation" spot?
2. When you are tied for #2, do you rotate for the #2 slot as normal? Do you get your #3 slot still?
3. If you become un-sanctioned, when do you become available for the #3 rotation again?
4. When does the "free rotation" slot reset?

I would suggest using something like a grab-bag style for picking the next #3. Civs that are #1, #2, or sanctioned would be passed over (only for that particular congress); once every civ has been pulled from the bag (or is disqualified by being #1, #2 or sanctioned), the bag is reset. Pull would be in turn order, as described in OP.

 

[Stalker0]

I see this as a negative, voting power gives you proposals, if you want to propose things....get more votes. So this one will get the downvote from me.

 

[balparmak]

I like this idea a lot, but I think there's several corner cases that would need to be figured out before implementing.

1. When delegate counts change, how do you resolve who is on the edge? If you drop from #2 to #3, do you get your "free rotation" spot?
2. When you are tied for #2, do you rotate for the #2 slot as normal? Do you get your #3 slot still?
3. If you become un-sanctioned, when do you become available for the #3 rotation again?
4. When does the "free rotation" slot reset?

I would suggest using something like a grab-bag style for picking the next #3. Civs that are #1, #2, or sanctioned would be passed over (only for that particular congress); once every civ has been pulled from the bag (or is disqualified by being #1, #2 or sanctioned), the bag is reset. Pull would be in turn order, as described in OP.

1) Depends on the turn order. The civ now taking the second place will get the reserved slot, you may have the rotation/third slot if you're next by the turn order.
2) Not sure but it applies to the current iteration too, can anyone remind me what happens when you're tied for #3 currently? I might be wrong but I remember suffering one such case where I was tied for #3 but denied a proposal, at least you'll get a chance with the modified version. I'd propose tied civs to alternate between themselves.
3&4) Again, depends on the turn order. It never resets.
Ex: Let's say civs are A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and this is the order in which they play their turns. By delegate count, B is the first and D is the second, G is dead and H is sanctioned. In the first session B will be #1, D #2 and A #3, turn order starts with A so it takes the rotation slot. Next session it's B's turn on the rotation but it gets skipped, so #3 will go to C, and then to E, as D gets skipped. Let's say that F takes the #2 spot before the next session. 3rd slot goes again to A, as F now benefits from the reserved slot, G is dead and H is sanctioned, so all three get skipped. Sounds complicated but it isn't really.

I'm willing to start the turn order from the 3rd most delegated civ at the first congress, small difference but may give them a chance to secure their position (i.e. if E had the third most delegates, we'd start with E then follow the turn order, E-F-G-H-A-B-C-D-E)

@Stalker
Well two slots are still reserved for civs to dominate the congress. I'm more on the "each civ should be able to engage with each mechanic, albeit to a limited degree" camp myself, and being able to propose once in every 6 sessions (on standard) is certainly limited.

 

[nekokon]

I don't think this would change anything gameplay wise, as even if civ with low vote power able to make a proposal it's likely gonna get vetoed by civ with high vote power anyway, thus wasting a proposal each season.

 

[ma_kuh]

@balparmak Just trying to follow your example.

By delegate count, B is the first and D is the second, G is dead and H is sanctioned.

1. A B C D E F G H < In the first session B will be #1, D #2 and A #3, turn order starts with A so it takes the rotation slot.
2. A B C D E F G H < Next session it's B's turn on the rotation but it gets skipped, so #3 will go to C,
3. A B C D E F G H < and then to E, as D gets skipped
4. A B C D E F G H < Let's say that F takes the #2 spot before the next session. 3rd slot goes again to A,

So I think my only issue is that in session 4, D has not yet benefited from their chance in the rotation slot, and the order has reset so that A is next in line, which feels unfair to me. The same is true for B, but they haven't lost control yet so it's not apparent.

I don't think this would change anything gameplay wise, as even if civ with low vote power able to make a proposal it's likely gonna get vetoed by civ with high vote power anyway, thus wasting a proposal each season.

Having low-vote power civs forwarding proposals is an opportunity to either enact comeback proposals (which otherwise I find go completely unchosen), or to curry favor by forwarding another civ's interests. I think it adds much, even if you can't pass the best thing for you every time.

 

[Rekk]

@balparmak Just trying to follow your example.

By delegate count, B is the first and D is the second, G is dead and H is sanctioned.

1. A B C D E F G H < In the first session B will be #1, D #2 and A #3, turn order starts with A so it takes the rotation slot.
2. A B C D E F G H < Next session it's B's turn on the rotation but it gets skipped, so #3 will go to C,
3. A B C D E F G H < and then to E, as D gets skipped
4. A B C D E F G H < Let's say that F takes the #2 spot before the next session. 3rd slot goes again to A,

So I think my only issue is that in session 4, D has not yet benefited from their chance in the rotation slot, and the order has reset so that A is next in line, which feels unfair to me. The same is true for B, but they haven't lost control yet so it's not apparent.



Having low-vote power civs forwarding proposals is an opportunity to either enact comeback proposals (which otherwise I find go completely unchosen), or to curry favor by forwarding another civ's interests. I think it adds much, even if you can't pass the best thing for you every time.

The idea is that D has had proposals for 3 sessions, so it's okay that it misses its chance in the rotation.

 

[ma_kuh]

I can understand that, despite my disagreement, but in that example F, which presumably was at least close to D in votes, has had that benefit*, but is now benefiting from what is essentially a come-from-behind bonus. As is I'm still in favor for this proposal, just trying to be crystal clear what the impact of the proposed choice order would be.
* Sorry, this isn't correct. The situation where that would be true is if F only gained #2 slot after session 4, e.g. if G or H wasn't sanctioned/dead.

Tweaking the situation just a little, say that A was #1, B was sanctioned, and the order is starting at C. B might become unsanctioned, miss their opportunity in the rotation slot, and even be re-sanctioned before their turn came back up. And you could say "they're being sanctioned, that's fine", but what if they were eliminated and then brought back? Do they still not get their free turn?

 

[ma_kuh]

Maybe it's clearer with this example: A and B are tied for delegates, so they enter into an every-other rotation.

1. A B C D E F G H
2. A B C D E F G H
3. A B C D E F G H
4. A B C D E F G H repeat...
5. A B C D E F G H
6. A B C D E F G H
7. A B C D E F G H
8. A B C D E F G H

B is proposing 3/4 of the time, while A is only proposing 2/4 of the time. But they are even on votes, so that's unfair.

 

[CrazyG]

This seems a little complex overall

What if the rules were just
1. Host always goes
2. Unless host of this round, you cannot propose twice in a row.
3. After excluding for the no twice in a row rule, assign in order of most votes.

There's no need to track much complex information, just which 3 civs aren't eligible next round. Civs who are in 7th or 8th for votes will likely never get to propose but I don't see that as an issue. No special rules needed for sanctions or civs dying/being revived.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.