• We need to know your opinion about our social media accounts! Tell us here if you follow us on social media and what we could improve.

World Congress Review: Part 2 (WC Proposals)

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
10,544
This is part 2 of our 3 part series. In this one, we are going to dig in on the specific WC proposals. What is the good, the bad, and the ugly?


Ban Luxury
This is actually a strong anti-leader proposal that would get more complaints if the AI used it more. I think the AI underestimates the strength of this one and so it doesn't get proposed all that often. The happiness change is whatever, but knocking out a critical monopoly (say +10% science) or flat out denying a civ a corporation is actually quite a big deal.

This is likely the most "sleeping giant" proposal, and probably could use some adjustment before the AI figures out how to put it to real work.

Casus Belli / Global Peace Accords
Personally, this is a non-proposal to me. I never propose it, and I never vote in it. If it passes it passes, if it doesn't it doesn't. I don't feel this proposal changes things enough for me to care either way, no matter what style I'm playing.

CS Sanctions
I think this one is pretty reasonable (unless your playing Germany in which case you hate this with the passion of a 1000 suns). It doesn't see a lot of AI attention but its a soft screw to certain playstyles if the need calls for it.

Cold War
The trade thing is honestly whatever to me; its the allied CS levels don't decline that is the "secret power" of this proposal, as that can easily be 15-20 influence per turn with those allied civs in the late game. Another one the AI doesn't seem to care about. I also feel like there should be some spy boosts or something here.

Cultural Heritage Sites
A good proposal that gives a solid boost to Tall. Its strong enough to care, not strong enough that I'm sweating if it passes when I don't want it to. I think its a well balanced proposal and a good example of what we want proposals to be.

Decolonization
The problem here is, the AI doesn't seem to understand the damage this proposal does to them. All they see is "oh that's going to hurt that other guy, lets do it!" forgetting that they have 4 CS allies they would lose in the process. The other main issue with this one is, its easy for the human to game, you can set up spies and diplo units right before the vote, and then flip a lot of CS to your cause. Do that with a well timed war declaration and you can lock up a lot of CS in rapid session, something the AI is not great at.

Suggestion
The proposal sets everyone back to 50 AND your influence with CS does not change for 1 congress cycle (aka 10 turns on standard speed). This forces everyone to deal with the results of the decol for a full cycle and not just flip everything back quickly.

Endowment for the Arts / World Science Initiative
Both of these are good rubber band proposals that shift the world into a more science or cultural orientation. Its meaty but not crazy. My only beef is the language might need a little work to reinforce how this works. I know for a long time this worked on score....but it doesn't, it works on very specific parts of your score that you need to look up to check how you are compared to the median.

Global Liberation
Its a neat one, but this is an example where a single vote can undo 100s of turns of work. It means that DomV players realistically always have to conquer capitals, because vassal alone is not "solid" enough without iron fist.

Perhaps this should reduce the requirements for vassal independence or something, but not just outright free them.

Global Wargames
A good proposal over all, a strong silver benefit with a reasonable gold one. Its one you never want to ignore due to the +25% attack bonus (which I like rather than a full +25% CS bonus as it shifts the war more hostile in a smart mechanical way).

Historical Landmarks
Another nice Tall proposal that is solid but not too threatening. I like it.

International Games
Right now this is every CV players dream proposal....so it never gets passed unless you have godly voting power. The AI knows full well how strong this is, and will either vote it down hard or will often counter it with a travel ban counterproposal or something. The bronze benefit is just too good, a full +50% tourism for bronze is pretty nuts (in comparison the gold one is quaint).

I think this one needs to be rebalanced to be less tourism focused, so that CV players can still propose it without it getting decimated... let it provide some soft tourism bonuses but nothing earth shattering.

International Space Station
This is a nice boost to SV play but nothing insane. Its a good solid proposal.

National Heritage Sites
The ultimate softball proposal, its never inflammatory and that's why I like it. Its good to have a few proposals where you just want to keep status quo and not piss anyone off, and this is a great one for that.

Nuclear Non-Proliferation
Just got a major change in the VP congress so we will see how the new version looks.

Open Door
What's nice about open door is that its impactful without being devastating, and it has a lot of reasons for its use. Its good if your not going big diplo play, or if there is a CS you just will never ally and would rather shut off. The AI uses it a decent amount but I don't find it too onerous, as even if I lose an ally I still have a permanent friend (and its not like anyone is taking the CS themselves and using it against me). So it sucks to lose the ally but its not a massive hit like some other proposals are.

Passport System
Another proposal that is nigh impossible to get through, the AI will either outvote you or just repeal it the 2nd they can. Again, it's just too polarizing, it provides ridiculous benefits to CV players, and nothing to anyone else....so there is no middle ground to do vote trades or convince non-CV players to pass it.

Suggestion
Maybe something like "All non-warring civs recieve a diplomat with each other civ". similar to the free diplomat you get with a vassal. This does provide tourism benefits, but nothing crazy, it encourages more vote trading....I think this becomes a lot easier of a pill to swallow.

Sanction
One of the poster childs for proposals that are "too harsh". Sanction is actually crazy strong for certain scenario. No trades, no deals, AND you lose all of your franchises! The franchise one to me is especially harsh, teh trade deals you might be able to reactivate with a repeal in the next congress, but franchises can take 30 turns to get going...your never going to fix that in the timespan of a normal game. That's just too much for 1 vote.

Suggestion
There are a lot of sanction suggestions out there, but for me they shouldn't remove franchises. You could disable them while the sanction is active, or make them worth 1/2 or something....but outright removal should...be removed!

Scholars in Residence
The ultimate rubberband proposal, probably the best rubberband in the game. This is my go to first Wc proposal (as normally I am behind in science). Its both a great rubberband but often not strong enough for the top players to bother repealing right away, so I think it has a good balance.

Spaceflight Regulations
Its not THAT strong a nerf to SV honestly, I mean its a factor, but I don't think its that big a penalty. Its probably fine as is.

Sphere of Influence
I think the change to make this ally only was a really nice change, it helped reduce a lot of of the abuse of this proposal. It is still one of the strongest proposals in the game though, and generally you see the "spherefest" in congress for about 30 turns where everyone just proposes spheres until all of those are locked up. However, that is way better than it used to be where it was all sphere all the time.

I do think the advantage is likely still a biiiit too good, and so recommend one additional cost.

Suggestion
Each sphere costs 1 paper. This weakens your diplo power a bit at the cost of having a CS that you never have to send diplo units too. I think its a fair cost that rounds off this proposal a bit, and prevents someone from racking up gobs of spheres. Also gives one more reason to keep getting GDs in the late game when their power really tapers off.

Travel Ban
With CV reigned in a lot from the old days, I think this is now too harsh a penalty. Basically when I play a CV now...I just assume a travel ban, as I never have enough congress power playing CV to fight it. So the -35% tourism IS the baseline for CV tourism, and that's a problem.

Suggestion
Similar to passport, it would be nice to make this less CV centric. Maybe ban all diplomats (which again weakens CV but not a huge amount). We could lower the penalty but again I think that ignores the problem....right now this proposal will always get passed when a player is going CV because its so targetted at CV players. The proposal needs to be a more general nerf so its less tempting to pull the trigger on.

Treasure Fleet
A nice early proposal, its good to get, not tooo bad if you ignore. Solid.

United Nations / World Ideology
I'll talk about these in Part 3 as their main purpose is a DV.

World Religion
This is another one that is sooo good its actually bad, because everyone and their mother will stop you from getting this. Even other civs that actually have your religion will vote against you, because the bonuses are just too great.

Suggestion
Remove the tourism bonus and extra votes for the holy city, and increase the spread to 30%. The goal here is to promote your religion, make people WANT to get your religion (for the votes). You should be getting tourism through common religion not some massive extra bonus that again makes everyone want to vote this down.

World's Fair
Only issue here is, the bronze and silver need to be swapped. A free policy is way better than +33% culture for 20 turns (if it was 33% culture for the rest of the game that would be a different matter, but its not). A simple swap of those and I think you are good to go.

Suggestion
Swap the bronze and silver benefits.
 
Sphere of Influence
I think the change to make this ally only was a really nice change, it helped reduce a lot of of the abuse of this proposal. It is still one of the strongest proposals in the game though, and generally you see the "spherefest" in congress for about 30 turns where everyone just proposes spheres until all of those are locked up. However, that is way better than it used to be where it was all sphere all the time.

I do think the advantage is likely still a biiiit too good, and so recommend one additional cost.

Suggestion
Each sphere costs 1 paper. This weakens your diplo power a bit at the cost of having a CS that you never have to send diplo units too. I think its a fair cost that rounds off this proposal a bit, and prevents someone from racking up gobs of spheres. Also gives one more reason to keep getting GDs in the late game when their power really tapers off.
That's a neat suggestion, would vote for this in the next congress session.

Regards
XSamatan
 
World Religion
This is another one that is sooo good its actually bad, because everyone and their mother will stop you from getting this. Even other civs that actually have your religion will vote against you, because the bonuses are just too great.

Suggestion
Remove the tourism bonus and extra votes for the holy city, and increase the spread to 30%. The goal here is to promote your religion, make people WANT to get your religion (for the votes). You should be getting tourism through common religion not some massive extra bonus that again makes everyone want to vote this down.
What's the point of passing this then? If you can pass this, you either are already the diplo leader (and think being able to spread religion better is worth pissing off everyone), or your religion is already the majority so other players help vote for it (then you don't need this passed).
World's Fair
Only issue here is, the bronze and silver need to be swapped. A free policy is way better than +33% culture for 20 turns (if it was 33% culture for the rest of the game that would be a different matter, but its not). A simple swap of those and I think you are good to go.
Humans abuse this too much and work Art process and buy writers on turn 10, 15 and 20 that the +33% culture is actually better than a free policy.
 
What's the point of passing this then? If you can pass this, you either are already the diplo leader (and think being able to spread religion better is worth pissing off everyone), or your religion is already the majority so other players help vote for it (then you don't need this passed).
Another vote and more religious spread....aka more stuff.... which is the point of everything in civ 5.
 
Another vote and more religious spread....aka more stuff.... which is the point of everything in civ 5.
And you're spreading the religion to others so they can get more votes as well. Currently the tourism and extra extra vote is the main point and counteracts the downsides of giving others more votes.
 
I think on the whole I pretty much agree with all of your takes, though I have a few I disagree with

Re: World's Fair, I agree with Azum that +33% culture is definitely stronger for a human player. If you have a couple thousand faith stacked up and can buy great writers, +33% culture really turns into like 2 extra policies if you play it right.

Re: Peace Accords/Casus Belli, I think you really underestimate the strength here. Even just the change to maintenance costs can be quite strong (upwards of like a 50 or even 100 gold delta between largest and smallest armies), but the diplomatic modifiers for taking cities and warmonger decay are in my experience pretty massive. If Peace Accords are active, I know I almost never can take even a single city without losing at least 1 friendly AI, and if I take 3 or more I will likely get denounced but just about everyone. Meanwhile Casus Belli essentially removes the diplomatic penalty from completely conquering/vassalizing even only moderately unpopular players.

Re: World Religion, I would honestly be in favor of totally reworking this proposal. How, I'm not sure, but currently it just feels broken, not necessarily in a power sense, but in that it just has this huge potential to ruin congress dynamics.

I think it would also be great if we added a proposal that was essentially like a representation of NAFTA or the EEC, i.e. a Free Trade agreement (I know this concept is already alluded to in a number of policies/tenets, but this would be pretty different). I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I think the most simple mechanic would have it just increase international TR income for both the owner and target player, increase the diplomatic boost from being trade partners, and slow influence decay with CS you have a TR with. I think this would be a proposal for three main reasons: 1) most proposals come in pairs, e.g. Casus Belli/Peace Accords or Passport/Travel Ban, and Cold War does not have a sister proposal, 2) congress proposals with positive benefits for all players, but which reward some more than others, are much more interesting proposals to me than ones that just massively hurt or benefit 1 or 2 players, and 3) there are very few sources of positive diplomatic favor in the late-game, which I think makes late-game diplomacy surprisingly un-dynamic, but this increasing the boost from being trade partners would help make it more interesting.
 
I think we should be reducing the number of proposals where only one player is the primary beneficiary.
And you're spreading the religion to others so they can get more votes as well. Currently the tourism and extra extra vote is the main point and counteracts the downsides of giving others more votes.
For example, passing World Religion should benefit everyone following the religion, with a minor benefit to the founder, instead of primarily benefitting the founder and minor benefits to everyone else.

No wonder you need to control congress completely in order to get much passed. You're the only beneficiary, so of course everyone is going to vote it down.
 
Looking at world religion, you already get some additional votes from the 1 vote / 10 cities bonus from reformation wonder. Simply because World Religion helps with spreading your religion.
Also, having more cities following your religion already benefit most founder beliefs, because they scale on number of followers/cities/spreading.
Maybe slightly empower spread, and remove extra tourism and votes (keeping the +1 vote for civs which follow the religion) and it would look okay for me.
 
Top Bottom