1) Should we preplan? 2) Shaitan used the 1st GL to create an army.

[Strider]

Originally posted by Cyc
Almost Strider. Shaitan based his decision on current information, in the eyes of the Government. The last poll on the subject can be seen as the current information. Even a hardy discussion in which the masses seem to agree can be seen as the people's will, although I wouldn't try to take it to the bank. Had someone like you started another discussion thread and then ran another poll to gather information (or even a binding poll), then the previous info would become obsolete and the new info would be the current info.

It was agreed that we were best served by making our first GL an Army and then after its first victory, building the Heroic Epic.
Simple as that. Now, as President, Shaitan is trying to gather more info on what to do with our next GL. He laid out the question in a manner that he thought would best help him get the answer he was lokking for. It didn't work. The citizen's weren't giving him the direction he was looking for. So he changed the question to a more basic, primal question hoping that the citizen's would more easily understand what he was looking for. But he put it in a situational format (a numbered step-by-step question) and hoped (I think) that people would give him a essay answer that would include situations in the list. But sure enough, people answered him in a numbered, step-by-step format. I don't think this will give him the real answers he's looking for, but it is information none the less. And now that his original question hit a dead-end, and then changing the query to a simpler format, he has to stand and take flak from people who really don't know what they're talking about. The situation taking place in this thread reminds me too much of real life.

Who agreed that it was best? Quite a few citizens said that a wonder should be placed. Shaitan went against the consititution in not posting a poll over this and can get a PI. As I've said already that poll us useless.... People change their minds. We can not rely on old information to govern ourselves. A new poll should have been posted. Shaitan did not go with the will of the citzenry, because we do not know what the will of the citizenry is.

The Constitution
# Right to Demand Satisfaction

1. Any citizen may call to account any violation of the Constitution or Code of Laws.
2. Any citizen can request that a departmental leader post a poll that lies within that leader’s responsibilities.
1. If two other citizens agree with the proposed poll (proposal seconded and carried) the request becomes a demand and the leader must comply.

The right to demand satisfaction. Alot of citizens would have used this IF they knew Shaitan was not going to do his duty and not post a poll over this discussion.

It's a simple matter.... A poll should have been posted. No matter what. The decision should not have been made without a poll posted over this discussion thread.

 

[Shaitan]

No, I did not go against the Constitution. The rules you quote say that if a poll is requested by 3 people that a Department Leader must post the applicable poll. That did not happen before the event in question. People asked why a poll had not been posted, AFTER everything was said and done.

It is the responsibility of each leader to make decisions when there is a lack of participation in the subject at hand.

 

[Chieftess]

hmm.. then what about all those polls we had to place? And... why are old wounds always reopened?

 

[Shaitan]

Polls are good. I love polls and I think we should have more of them. More important than polls are good discussions though and we definitely need more of those. I'm very happy to see the number of discussion threads on the increase, as well as participation in them. I think we're on the right track there.

@Chieftess - This one isn't an old wound. It's a fresh one that's still bleeding.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Shaitan
Polls are good. I love polls and I think we should have more of them. More important than polls are good discussions though and we definitely need more of those. I'm very happy to see the number of discussion threads on the increase, as well as participation in them. I think we're on the right track there.

@Chieftess - This one isn't an old wound. It's a fresh one that's still bleeding.

Shaitan it's easy enough..... You should have posted a poll over what we should have done with the Great Leader. The use of Great Leader's is a major factor in the game as they come in short supply. You might have been trying to do something in Fanatika's best interest, but the fact of the matter is that some citizens wanted to use the GL to rush a wonder. You made the choice on your own. You did not ask for what the citizens wanted.

 

[Shaitan]

I was actually in the process of doing exactly that (which should have been done long before) when we received our GL. At that point I made a judgement call based on the feedback that actually had been received to that point.

 

[Octavian X]

Actaully, I'd like to see this much disputed poll. I have yet to see it.

 

[Shaitan]

That's the point, Octavian. The GL was received before the poll was posted. All this clamor is about the lack of a poll because I made a decision based on discussion on a closely contested issue.

 

[Octavian X]

In that case, I feel Shaitan did nothing worng. It's legal for him to make decisions based on discussion.

 

[GenMarshall]

I beleve that Shaitan did nothing wrong. In anycase it is legal for him to make the decission based upon the discutions .

 

[naervod]

When Shaitan presented a hypothectical case for me to defend for my application for Public Defender it was exactly like this except with the President building cities instead of using a GL. It is perfectly legal for Shaitan to do this. A poll is recommended, but not required ans Shaitan was not violating the Constitution when her did this.

 

[Plexus]

I concurr, Shaitan acted out of the best intrest of Fanatika. While there is something not quite right about our president's actions, they were most certantly not illegal.

 

[disorganizer]

and anyways:
if shaitan did something wrong, then also chieftess and eklektikos did. also the science leader and the domestic leader as well as the cultural leader not only of this term but of all 3 terms then had failed their job.
someone up for a pi? then be fair and pi all of them

 

[Furry Spatula]

out of curriosity, if I and 2 other people say that, We want a poll if another great leader occures, no pre planning for it, but if a GL comes we want a poll. Will a poll then be required. B/c if it works that way, count me as poll wanter number 1. And the poll i want is how the GL should be used when we get it, none of this pre-planning stuff b/c things can change so quickly.

 

[donsig]

There is no doubt that our President acted within the Constitution. It was legal. But was it right? I don't think so. Even though I would have voted to use the leader for an army the decision to do so should have been brought to the forums. Shaitan has since shown his willingness to bring things to the forums as witnessed by the last turn chat.

 

[Furry Spatula]

Donsig i need to agree with you, I don't challenge the legality of what he did, however i dissagree with the fact that it wasn't polled. However, i hope that this gets straightened out and we won't end up having any more controversy.

On the other hand, I don't want to be too hard on you Shaitan. I have to say that its good that you atleast went to the forum. It shows that you didn't just act on your own agenda and left everyone in the dark.

But still we should have had a poll in my opinion. Thats all it is though, just an opinion.

 

[disorganizer]

So what can we do now?
I think we could set up a general guideline... for example when to use a GL for a wonder, and when for an army?

I would propose: We mark our wonder-queue with the high priority wonders. And we should plan this in advance for the whole age!
If one of those high priority wonders are possible to build in a city and we get a GL, we could set up a guideline saying that the wonder must be built.
If we get a GL and no wonder is in the queue, we can leave it up to the DP to use it how he thinks would fit.

 

[Furry Spatula]

My thought on this issue is quite simple. If a GL is created then stop the turn chat and poll the citizenry. the deadline for the poll will be the next turn chat, regardless if it has met quorum or not.

I dont know how the constitutionality of that last little bit would work, but since leaders usually won't occure every turnchat. Then we probably wouldn't need to worry about the turnchats ending too soon.

Mind you i do see the point that Shaitan had about not wanting another 1 turn TC to happen.

So all said and done, i think that your idea is probably best Dis. However, we may want to add in a little flexibility. If the government has a second thought as to if we should go for the wonder or not at the moment, say in the middle of the war, they have the ability to stop the TC and poll the citizenry. I dont like the idea of having everything set in stone as it leads to inflexibility in a game in which many different things can occur. But your idea, with the addition of allowing a poll to happen if the government thinks that using the GL wouldn't be the best thing to do at the time (probably you just assumed that the polling would be possible), would be a good way to go about handling this.

 

[disorganizer]

Furry: of course its always up to the DP to decide to stop the TC and have a detailed poll.
The above would give him a guideline what to to when he does definitely not want to stop the TC for that issue (for example on turn1 when we need to do at least 2 turns for something we wanted to finish in that respective TC).

 

[Furry Spatula]

alright then, If you poll that idea you'd have a yes vote from me.