Txurce
Deity
I just built two courthouses in puppets once resistance finished, and saw no improvement in unhappiness that turn, or the turn after. Since this is a GotVEM game, I'll pause until the issue is resolved.
112 Courthouse Bug?
- Thread starter Txurce
- Start date
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Occupied cities now have a yield penalty, instead of a happiness penalty. I think there should be more details on the "occupy or leave as puppet?" popup box.
Txurce
Deity
I missed the pop-up, but did drop 5 happiness points going from puppet to occupied status.
That aside, does building a courthouse then increases yields, but does nothing for happiness?
Puppets also have a yield penalty - is it somewhere between "occupied" and "annexed?
That aside, does building a courthouse then increases yields, but does nothing for happiness?
Puppets also have a yield penalty - is it somewhere between "occupied" and "annexed?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Tids
Chieftain
Is it possible for the actual figures of unhappiness gain to be shown for when the option to raze or puppet appears?
I believe this was taken out recently in a related update concerning the choices, although I'm not too sure why...
I believe this was taken out recently in a related update concerning the choices, although I'm not too sure why...
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Sure, I'll add that in. I removed it for a while because the calculations changed, and I wasn't sure how things would settle down. Figuring out exactly how much happiness a city will add requires checking a lot of different variables. 
Tids
Chieftain
Cool, thanks Thal
I found a different bug related to the courthouse in my current v112 game. If you build a courthouse in an occupied city the penalties for an occupied city seem to remain in place for the turn the courthouse completes. I'm not sure if it's just a display bug or if I'm actually not getting the money/production/science for that turn or not, but at the very least it's definitely not updating the display that turn. This seems to happen whether I build the courthouse normally or I purchase it.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Check the hover tooltips in the city view. Those display the +/- modifiers and such, and the formula for the tooltips is identical to the one used for actual gameplay effects. This ensures there's no difference between "display" and "gameplay," so bugs are more clearly visible.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Thank you, I'll investigate this further.
myclan
King
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2008
- Messages
- 673
I'll recomended that puppets produce half (even 1/4) yields (including gold/culture/science) and unhappiness.
So that puppet is best to just "occupy" a city(while buring it down may cause a new city to be built), while we don't need it to provide gold/culture/science for the whole empire.
Also, I think that one reason for CIV5 to develop the Puppeting System is to reduce the numbers of city that a player need to govern (Sometimes it's too tired to order each city to produce something). Puppeting is a way to relax while controlling a big empire.
So that puppet is best to just "occupy" a city(while buring it down may cause a new city to be built), while we don't need it to provide gold/culture/science for the whole empire.
Also, I think that one reason for CIV5 to develop the Puppeting System is to reduce the numbers of city that a player need to govern (Sometimes it's too tired to order each city to produce something). Puppeting is a way to relax while controlling a big empire.
Ahriman
Tyrant
1/4 unhappiness (ie -75%) in puppets would be game-breaking. It would make conquest way too easy.
There is also the problem of how modifiers interact; if you give a city a -75% gold penalty and then it builds a market and a bank, then it is now only -25%. So those buildings have trippled its gold income, but at a trivial cost to happiness. So population in puppets would become way too cost-effective.
There is also the problem of how modifiers interact; if you give a city a -75% gold penalty and then it builds a market and a bank, then it is now only -25%. So those buildings have trippled its gold income, but at a trivial cost to happiness. So population in puppets would become way too cost-effective.
myclan
King
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2008
- Messages
- 673
That's really a problem with current modifiers interacting system.
Actually I hope puppets can act as the way more or less like vassal states of Civ4.
They are your friend, and you just don't need to worry about them.
Puppets of Civ5 cost too much (unhappiness) and gain so little(very low efficiency), making it so unattractive.
Ahriman
Tyrant
But that is how it works. You can't just ignore how the game engine works.
I really hope we never do this. It should never be painless or easy to conquer en masse, or we will go back to Civ4 where conquest was nearly always the best strategy.
VEM puppets use less happiness than normal cities. The idea is that for puppets that you actually want to get benefits from, being a puppet is a transitional state to annexation and courthouse.
Txurce
Deity
Agreed, top to bottom.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Puppeting is better for small cities, and annexation for large ones:
- Yields scale to city size.
- The main negative effects of annexation are fixed and independent of city size (higher policy and natural wonder costs).
wcbarney
Know-it-all
I posted this in the "First playthrough; Questions, concerns, and feedback" thread of the VEM main forum -- didn't yet know there was this bug report sub-forum.
About 2/3 through my first VEM game, I conquered a Japanese city that they had conquered a long time previously from the Mongols. I puppeted it, and after the population settled down I occupied it. It already had a courthouse, but (to my surprise) still was shown as an occupied city
, with the attendant production penalty. I couldn't sell the old courthouse & I couldn't build nor buy a new one.
About 2/3 through my first VEM game, I conquered a Japanese city that they had conquered a long time previously from the Mongols. I puppeted it, and after the population settled down I occupied it. It already had a courthouse, but (to my surprise) still was shown as an occupied city
, with the attendant production penalty. I couldn't sell the old courthouse & I couldn't build nor buy a new one.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The city had a courthouse when you conquered it? Courthouses have a ConquestProb of 0, which should in theory destroy it. If you have autosaves from earlier turns, see if the puppet state had a courthouse right after conquering it. From that point we can determine where the problem might be.
wcbarney
Know-it-all
Well, the autosaves don't last that long (by default, I think). I went "dumpster diving" and retrieved all the quick saves from that game & went through them 'til I found the first one I had saved after I had acquired the city (turn 262), but before I had occupied it (i.e., Turfan is still a puppet). Now I realize that I hadn't actually "conquered" Turfan, but that it was part of a peace settlement.
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