+12 combat bonus?

[Kyuss]

Hi,
I was playing with Pericles and suddenly Gengis attacked me. I had walls (ancient only), military fortresses placed in the path of his attack and crossbows, His knights seemed to be unstoppable, I noticed that Genghis had a whooping +12 combat bonus against me(!), that bonus was called something as (sorry my game is in spanish): "+12 information about enemy moves". What is this? I have searching but I didn't find anything about this bonus.
Any information?
Thanks

 

[Inhalaattori]

Mongols have Civ ability called Örtöö. It gives you extra strength based on diplomatic visibility.

Starting a Trade Route immediately creates a Trading Post in the destination city. Receive an extra level of DiplomaticVisibility for possessing a Trading Post in any city of a civilization. All Mongolian units gain +3 Combat Strength for each level of Diplomatic Visibility on their opponent

 

[isau]

Hi,
I was playing with Pericles and suddenly Gengis attacked me. I had walls (ancient only), military fortresses placed in the path of his attack and crossbows, His knights seemed to be unstoppable, I noticed that Genghis had a whooping +12 combat bonus against me(!), that bonus was called something as (sorry my game is in spanish): "+12 information about enemy moves". What is this? I have searching but I didn't find anything about this bonus.
Any information?
Thanks

It means he sent a Trade Route to you and got diplomatic visibility.

You can counter him somewhat by sending a spy and running the Listening Post mission, which will give you +1 diplomatic visibility on him and cut the bonus by 6. If you don't have a spy and are really desperate, if you can find the city where he put the Trading Post you can trade the city away, which will kill his advantage (obviously at a big loss to you). In the overall, if you're worried about him attacking you you should declare war as early as possible to prevent him from ever sending a Trader and getting his combat bonus.

 

[criZp]

Hi,
I was playing with Pericles and suddenly Gengis attacked me. I had walls (ancient only), military fortresses placed in the path of his attack and crossbows, His knights seemed to be unstoppable, I noticed that Genghis had a whooping +12 combat bonus against me(!), that bonus was called something as (sorry my game is in spanish): "+12 information about enemy moves". What is this? I have searching but I didn't find anything about this bonus.
Any information?
Thanks

for each level of diplomatic visibility you have on an opponent, you get +3 combat strength against his units. Khan has an ability that doubles this, so he gets +6 for each level of diplo visibility.

 

[Turrdy]

for each level of diplomatic visibility you have on an opponent, you get +3 combat strength against his units. Khan has an ability that doubles this, so he gets +6 for each level of diplo visibility.

So if there are 4 levels of diplomatic visibility Genghis can get +24 combat strength?
Thats even more hardcore than the luxury bonus the Aztecs have

Edit: you only have to:

1. Send a trade delegation or have an embassy
2. Having sent a trade route at least once (since Genghis gets diplo. vis. from trade posts and trade routes (although no trade routes during war))
3. Have a spy on a listening post (Rennaisance era civic)
4. Researched Printing technology (Rennaisance era tech)

And that's actually very easy to achieve.

 

[AlannaT]

So if there are 4 levels of diplomatic visibility Genghis can get +24 combat strength?
Thats even more hardcore than the luxury bonus the Aztecs have

Edit: you only have to:

1. Send a trade delegation or have an embassy
2. Having sent a trade route at least once (since Genghis gets diplo. vis. from trade posts and trade routes (although no trade routes during war))
3. Have a spy on a listening post (Rennaisance era civic)
4. Researched Printing technology (Rennaisance era tech)

And that's actually very easy to achieve.

Except that the embassy vanishes and trade routes are cancelled as soon as war is declared. And AFAIK diplomatic visibility is always relative for both opponents(1). So if your enemy has researched printing too you don't get any bonus. So +12 is most likely as good as it gets.

(1) I think it works like this:
Diplomatic visibility level player 1 = n, Diplomatic visibility level player 2 = m
Combat bonus per DV level = 6 if Genghis and = 3 else
If n = m: no combat bonus
If n > m: combat bonus for player 1 = (n - m) * <combat bonus per DV level of player 1>
If m > n: combat bonus for player 2 = (m - n) * <combat bonus per DV level of player 2>

It certainly would benefit Genghis if the following is correct instead (which might be):
If n > m: combat bonus for player 1 = (n * <combat bonus per DV level of player 1>) - (m * <combat bonus per DV level of player 2>)
because in that case a DV of level 3 for Genghis versus DV of level 2 for his opponent would result in (3 * 6) - (2 * 3) = 12 instead of (3 - 2) * 6 = 6.

For everyone else but Genghis both formulas have the same result.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

So if there are 4 levels of diplomatic visibility Genghis can get +24 combat strength?
Thats even more hardcore than the luxury bonus the Aztecs have

Edit: you only have to:

1. Send a trade delegation or have an embassy
2. Having sent a trade route at least once (since Genghis gets diplo. vis. from trade posts and trade routes (although no trade routes during war))
3. Have a spy on a listening post (Rennaisance era civic)
4. Researched Printing technology (Rennaisance era tech)

And that's actually very easy to achieve.

1eclaration of war immediately destroyed all delegations or embassys.

2:Once you conquered that city the trading post bonus is no longer there.

3: Spies? Spies take too long time to operate. Also obsolete when you enemy listens your post.

4: Beeline for Printing, this is a nice bonus. Obsolete when you enemy have printing.

 

[Turrdy]

1eclaration of war immediately destroyed all delegations or embassys.

2:Once you conquered that city the trading post bonus is no longer there.

3: Spies? Spies take too long time to operate. Also obsolete when you enemy listens your post.

4: Beeline for Printing, this is a nice bonus. Obsolete when you enemy have printing.

Hmm, yeah, and in contrary, the Aztec Luxury bonus stays, no matter what (except if you lose a city with a luxury ). Well, seems like I overestimated the Mongolian bonus a bit. It's still a nice thing though.

On the calculation: do the DV-levels cancel each other out and you'll only get a bonus if you have a higher level, or do the combat bonuses apply anyhow and normally just cancel each others out? E.g.: if you (Mongolian) have DV-level of 3 on your enemy (with a spy and Printing and a trading post) and your enemy has a DV-level of 2 on you (spy and Printing), is it either:

1. You have +18 and your enemy +6 meaning you'll have +12 overall OR
2. 2 of the 3 levels cancel out and you have +6 and your enemy +0, so a overall of +6 in favour of you?

Edit: Sorry @AlannaT I only read your formulas after posting this, but they seemed a bit overcomplicated (for those who are not that much into maths ) but I'm aware you stated the exact same thing as I did here^^

 

[Question]

Bonuses cancel each other so, if both civs have printing, its effectively an equal level of vissibility.

 

[isau]

Yes Genghis can totally rock you if he gets a lot of visibility on you. Here's a list of all available diplo sources in the game:

Trade Routes and Delegates disappear on war declaration. Trading posts, spies (running the Listening Post mission), the Printing tech and Mary Katherine Goddard do not.

Never let Genghis go full Mary Katherine Goddard.

 

[Turrdy]

Bonuses cancel each other so, if both civs have printing, its effectively an equal level of vissibility.

so concerning my earlier post, do you mean case 1 or case 2?

 

[Question]

so concerning my earlier post, do you mean case 1 or case 2?

Case 2, the spy/printing cancels each other out, leaving you wth the trading post bonus.

 

[isau]

so concerning my earlier post, do you mean case 1 or case 2?

All civs get +3 combat bonus per level of Diplo Visibility over other civs. Genghis simply doubles this.

So:

• If any not-Mongolia civ has +1 Diplo Visibility vs another civ they get +3 Combat
• If Mongolia has +1 Diplo Visibility vs another civ they get +(3 x 2) Combat

If Mongolia has the same Diplo Visibility as another civ the bonus is 0 x 2 = 0, so nothing at all.

 

[local_hero]

Regarding this, how does the listening post mission work? Does it give you +1 Diplomatic Visibility during the mission is conducted? If you have 2 spies doing the listening post, does the bonus apply twice?

I've tried to find this in the civpedia. Some things are very poorly explained in the game.