[Vote] (2-13) Change How The Number Of Religions In A Game Is Determined

[pineappledan]

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Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

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VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13
Currently the number of religions in the game is set by map size, independent of the number of players in the game.

I propose that the calculation for the max number of religions in a game be based on the number of Players in a game, up to the number of possible religions based on how many beliefs we have (currently 8):

Y = (X / 2) + 1
Where
Y= Number of religions
X = Number of players

On standard, 8 player map that is equal to (8 / 2) + 1 = 5. This is the same number as it is currently.
The largest changes to the current system would be the following:

Max number of religions would scale more dynamically for players that like to add or remove civs, rather than playing with the defaults.​

The game scaling would go up to 8 for games with up to 15 players​

both players in 1v1 games would be able to found religions​

 

[stii]

Sounds very reasonable, seems liek it shuold have been this way in the base game. Won't affect many people but I don't see how this is ever a negative.

 

[pineappledan]

This is just a small quality of life change.
There is a setting in the CBP mod options that lets you override the number of religions:

UPDATE Worlds
SET MaxActiveReligions = 'XX'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_STANDARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

Since players already have total control over how many civs they want in their game with the CBP option this doesn't actually fix anything. However, I've had a couple instances where I have loaded in the games and realized partway through that I should have changed this CBP option before starting my game, but didn't want to have to reroll my game.

 

[balparmak]

I always wanted to try 6 players on Standard etc., this would be nice. Can be fast-tracked if it gets a sponsor, I don't see any arguments against this either

 

[psparky]

One observation, there is a related database entry in Worlds, ReformationPercentRequired, intended to make reforming similarly difficult for each number of religions. This should also be changed so that it depends on the number of religions, rather than world size.

Also, not sure where 17 civs comes from; the max of 8 religions would apply to games with 14 or more civs.

 

[pineappledan]

Also, not sure where 17 civs comes from; the max of 8 religions would apply to games with 14 or more civs.

up to 15, rounding down, but you're correct. Amended.

This is something I think about a lot because the game gives you enough slots in game setup for 22 players, but only has enough beliefs for 8 religions.

 

[psparky]

Can be fast-tracked if it gets a sponsor, I don't see any arguments against this either

I'm not sure about that. While I agree that number of civs would be a better basis for setting the default number of religions, as things stand players have the option to choose the number they want. If you hard-wire it based on the number of civs, they will lose this option.

Given that only people playing with a non-standard number of civs for the map size will see any change, that seems like the the group who may also want to control the number of religions. I think this proposal should set the default, but a way to override it is needed.

At least people need to vote on it.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m not suggesting the custom mod option be scrapped, but that the default calculation change.

 

[psparky]

As far as I know, there is no custom mod option nor default calculation - the value is taken directly from the Worlds table in the database.

 

[psparky]

@Recursive I think this proposal needs further refinement and currently should be vetoed. As it stands, it achieves nothing whilst messing up reformation and losing existing flexibility.

It fails to address the related database value ReformationPercentRequired which depends on the number of religions, but is implemented via world size. People playing with a non-standard number of players for the map size would still need to edit the XML or use sql to adjust this value so they might as well change the number of religions at the same time. If they don't, then they will be playing with mismatched numbers and reformation will be much easier or harder than intended. I think the most likely outcome is that casual players who add extra players to the game will find there are more religions available than they are used to but it's much harder to reform.

I also think it's important to understand that you can already set the number of religions/reformation percent in xml/sql. If the database values are replaced with calculations then the ability to play non-standard configurations, such as choosing to add extra religions or make reforming easier, will be lost. Perhaps a proposal could add new database variables e.g. OVERRIDE_NUM_RELIGIONS to retain the existing flexibility.

Finally, I don't see an easy formula for ReformationPercentRequired that gives the same results as the current database values. Unless such a formula could be found, then a new table would be needed to match number of religions with the appropriate ReformationPercentRequired, or a side effect would be a change in the reformation percent for some configurations.

 

[pineappledan]

As far as I know, there is no custom mod option nor default calculation

At this point, I'm terribly confused about what you are not understanding about this proposal.

You claim that the mod option to change the max number of religions doesn't exist, and then in the next breath, use its existence as an example of something my proposal would destroy (even though it doesn't).
MaxActiveReligions is already a custom mod option. I am aware of it, I posted about it in #3. The main point of this proposal is to make it so calculating the default number of religions in the game depends on game setting that make more sense than using map size, so people have to use the custom mod option less.

Or maybe I am failing to apprehend something about this?

It fails to address the related database value ReformationPercentRequired which depends on the number of religions, but is implemented via world size. People playing with a non-standard number of players for the map size would still need to edit the XML or use sql to adjust this value so they might as well change the number of religions at the same time. If they don't, then they will be playing with mismatched numbers and reformation will be much easier or harder than intended. I think the most likely outcome is that casual players who add extra players to the game will find there are more religions available than they are used to but it's much harder to reform.

Literally the entire point of this proposal is to change the way max religions are set so that people don't have to go into the customModOptions if they manipulate the number of players.

Rather than calling for this proposal to be vetoed for failing to address how ReformationPercentRequired is calculated, why not discuss how it is calculated and we can amend the proposal to deal with that?

For instance, The percentage of followers needed to reform could be 100/NumMaxReligions + ReformationPercentRequired, where the default value for ReformationPercentRequired = 0, and can be set to a positive or negative value.

 

[psparky]

We have discussed this on discord. Basically I agree that probably most people don't know about the current way of setting values in xml/sql so the loss of flexibility isn't a big deal. However I'm still concerned that reformation is going to get wonky. Will resume tomorrow.

 

[psparky]

There are various suggestions to change the way the % followers needed to reform is calculated being discussed on Discord/Balance. They probably won't be part of this proposal though.

In order to retain the current relationship between the number of religions and the % followers needed to reform, my only suggestion is to add a table or case statement that gives the same mapping as the current implementation, and then use the number of religions as now calculated by this proposal as the index.

A future proposal (or even one in the current round) could then suggest a suitable formula to replace this table.

 

[Tekamthi]

can you make this account for 43 civ games as well? i cant always seem to make it work in every version of VP, but when i can, i usually switch to at least 10 religions for 43 civ; doesn't have to be double the 22 civ game, but should be a few more

 

[pineappledan]

I guess? 43 civs will max the religions out fast

 

[Tekamthi]

I guess? 43 civs will max the religions out fast

thats okay, i just want that max to be reached by the time i've put in 43 civs, whether it hits max at 30 or 40 or w/e doesn't matter so much to me, just needs more than 8 in a 43 civ/huge game

 

[pineappledan]

There are only enough beliefs for 8 religions in the game right now.

 

[Tekamthi]

There are only enough beliefs for 8 religions in the game right now.

well this answers why i can't seem to set it to more lately

in the past i successfully had it at 10 or more, i think beliefs were allowed to be recycled back then when the bucket ran out? is this the change that has us stuck at 8? would prefer to have that recycling back on personally

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t think recycling has ever been a thing? Maybe you were playing with my more beliefs mod?

 

[Tekamthi]

I don’t think recycling has ever been a thing? Maybe you were playing with my more beliefs mod?

there was a point, several years ago, where i hard locked my game by setting more religions than 8 -- i believe it was G, or possibly another dev, that replied to the git report and enabled choice of any belief once all beliefs were otherwise chosen... ie religion 9+ effectively started over with a new list of beliefs available. I may be mis-describing the fix, but someone did something that made 9+ religions work fine for the next few years -- sometime in the past year or so I found this was no longer possible, if you set more than 8 now the game will either not recognize the setting, or show 9+ religions possible in UI, and spawn great prophet, but not allow creation of the 9th religion -- this variation may be attributable to my only partially changing the required settings in some versions, or attempting other workarounds. My play in recent years has been intermittent so I am summarizing vast periods here in a few sentences. Anyway, it worked at one point, i swear

edit: see https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/3306

i have also tried the more beliefs mod, and enjoyed this, though it seems to have the same problem as described above with some kind of inconsistent hard cap in recent versions.. ui and great prophets just don't agree when religion caps are increased. I haven't tested on past 2-3 versions, have not attempted religion lately due to this issue (founding strategy is almost impossible in 43 civ w/ only 8 available, must capture or go without)

edit 2:
this is the sql I've been using for a long time for 43 civ game:

UPDATE Worlds
SET DefaultPlayers = 43, DefaultMinorCivs = 20, FogTilesPerBarbarianCamp = 5, NumNaturalWonders = 17, GridWidth = 180, GridHeight = 94, MaxActiveReligions = 10
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_HUGE';

A little off topic here, but some observations using this:

• the numnaturalwonders never worked on its own (though it did with an additional assignstartingplots.lua change for many years, but no longer)
• MaxActiveReligions used to work but hasn't recently: ui shows change but GP cannot found past 8; must confirm in current version
• Grid stuff used to work, though I don't think it works anymore either tbh; its inconsistent anyway for w/e reason, seems it sometimes does sometimes doesn't. possibly mod order issue on my end, and/or dependant on map script selected
• is fogtilesperbarbariancamp still a table entry?