[Vote] (2-48) Remove Influence Modifiers From Tech

[pineappledan]

Voting Instructions
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VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 48
There are 3 different techs that directly give a % modifier to tourism on Empire:
Radio : 15%
Computers : 15%
Internet : 100%

In general, SVs are uncommon, and CVs are a little too common. An obvious first step to addressing this is to prevent tech leads from directly affecting Tourism, so that a tech leader doesn't default into a CV.

Proposal: Remove all 3 tech tourism modifiers

This would require changing the Great Firewall wonder as well, because the GFW disables enemy civs' internet tourism boost against you. Meaning it gives a -100% tourism modifier to that civ once they have researched internet.
Instead, the GFW could just give everyone a -50% Tourism modifier towards you, regardless of tech.

 

[CppMaster]

That could be too harsh for CV and make it too weak. I'd start with lower numbers first.

 

[ma_kuh]

I don't know, if we went a patch where CVs were less prevalent than DiploV and SV, at least we'd know what we changed made a difference. Although there's so many moving pieces at this point, it might be time to take a step back and develop a plan for evaluating which experimental changes to do, and when.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor this

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by pineappledan.

 

[Grassland Farm]

It is well that CVers are encouraged to keep a competitive science output. I'd rather see CV nerfed elsewhere.

 

[hokath]

I see both sides. I like that removing these slightly exotic effects makes the game just a bit simpler.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m a little bit surprised this is even a little bit close. The community has been wringing its hands about how 60% of games are won via CV and only 10% are by SV. The dedicated Civs (babylon, Korea, Maya) are actually winning a decent amount of games, but they are winning 3x as many games via CV than SV. That seems like a pretty clear signal that CVS are co-opting science leadsthat might have otherwise been science wins.

The tech modifiers are the clearest starting point for addressing this. If people actually want more SVs and fewer CVs, then we need to start by making sure one is not just a different form of the other.

 

[Rekk]

Radio and Computers are roughly when we want CV players to start getting dominant with some of the other players. By Internet, the CV player should be trying to finish up. These tech modifiers exist to help it along.

The game shouldn't be "get dominant with 6 players in Renaissance and Industrial, then wait until late Information to get enough tourism to take out the culture leader". This is an issue with early sources of tourism.

 

[pineappledan]

Radio and Computers are roughly when we want CV players to start getting dominant with some of the other players. By Internet, the CV player should be trying to finish up. These tech modifiers exist to help it along.

Telecommunications, with its big last building and wonder for CV also exist. That would be the last ditch CV tech now. And if that fails then the SV player or domination, or diplo player gets to mop up. If you want fewer CVs then CV players should be allowed to founder and fail.

 

[Rekk]

CV players can see that they are not going to turn the final player dominant after building everything at Telecommunications. Their sources of musicians can only get less frequent, they aren't getting any more trade routes, there are no buildings left to build. An SV player just has X techs left to research, a DomV player just has Y capitals left to conquer. Even a DipV player gets more and more votes (for free) with each World Leader session, even if they can't achieve victory after allying every CS. The CV player gets to look at his CV screen and see that, even at peak output (which only goes downhill from Telecom), they will not be able convert the holdout.

"Flounder and fail" in this context means "abandon the game before the other players can win, because you have no chance". It turns the "race to the finish" into "There's no point trying to cross the finish line".

 

[CppMaster]

CV players can see that they are not going to turn the final player dominant after building everything at Telecommunications. Their sources of musicians can only get less frequent, they aren't getting any more trade routes, there are no buildings left to build. An SV player just has X techs left to research, a DomV player just has Y capitals left to conquer. Even a DipV player gets more and more votes (for free) with each World Leader session, even if they can't achieve victory after allying every CS. The CV player gets to look at his CV screen and see that, even at peak output (which only goes downhill from Telecom), they will not be able convert the holdout.

"Flounder and fail" in this context means "abandon the game before the other players can win, because you have no chance". It turns the "race to the finish" into "There's no point trying to cross the finish line".

Huh? If you can't win culturally then you still could win by science. Or you are punished for putting all eggs in one busket, AKA "all in".

 

[pineappledan]

Sometimes an opponent civ just has too strong a defense.
Sometimes you just can’t seem to get the votes you need before getting decolonized again.
Sometimes you just can’t overcome someone else’s culture.
But spaceships are forever.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.