2 unrelated questions

[B1sh0p]

Just 2 questions I've been thinking about.

1) Marines. Are they good for anything? By the time I have Marines, most of my cities are protected by Infantry. And since Infantry get a (correct me if I'm wrong) +25 vs gunpowder units, the 24 vs 20 strength doesn't seem to be enough reason to use Marines over Infantry. Plus they cost 20 more hammers, which in anything but your military production cities will mean 1 more turn to complete. Perhaps if they had 2 movement instead of 1 I can see them being useful, but since they only have 1 movement, I don't see how they're much better than Infantry. Their amphibious trait could come in useful for declaring war, landing, AND attacking all in 1 turn before the enemy can reinforce, but beyond that I don't see their purpose. That is, unless their +25% vs artillery also lessens the amount of collateral damage inflicted upon you when the enemy attacks your stack with artillery. If so, 1 or 2 of these units in your assault stacks could help you, I suppose. Does the +25% vs artillery lessen collateral damage? And also, by the time you have Marines, having researched Industrialism you have tanks, which are much better than Marines. What is the use of the marine?

2) I've never asked another civ to stop trading with another civ. When you do so, do they stop trading techs, as well as resources? And how long do they not trade for? If you ask a civ to declare peace, or to declare war, they will do so for a certain amount of time, but after a while they could declare war, or make peace on their own later. So to summarize, how long do they stop trading, do they not trade techs as well as resources, and do you get any negative diplo multipliers from the civ you've asked them to stop trading with?

 

[flamingzaroc121]

Marines are good for overseas invasions(cause of amphibious) and are great at taking out machine guns, which can be nasty to deal with

 

[ButSam]

I've never built Marines in Civ4, but to be honest I wasn't really fighting many wars (next to none that I declared for more than taking over 1 city) in vanilla Civ4. Now that I have Warlords, I'm doing more fighting to get used to the much-streamlined combat system in Civ4 (vice Civ3).

I think, though, judging from previous Civs, that Marines exist to defeat the "cheat" of placing 1 military unit all around your island to ensure no invasions can occur. Marines can attack from a boat to the land, so there goes that technique.

I have not noticed AIs trading techs with each other when you ask them to stop trading (though it is hard to tell; I have not checked WorldBuilder frequently to check it). It lasts for at least 10 turns, though it may last longer.

You most likely will get negative points for stopping trade with a certain Civ. You *may* get positive points from Civ(s) that hate the Civ you stopped trading with, though (especially if it came at a certain Civ's request).

In Civ4, it is very difficult to please everyone (except at low difficulty -- Settler or Chieftain). You should pick a couple of Civs to be friendly toward (hopefully they like each other, too). Preferrably, one will be a warmonger (but not a psycho like Monty), and neither will be adjacent to your land (to avoid negative modifiers from being too close).

I know I didn't answer everything, but there is a start.

Sam

 

[B1sh0p]

The one thing that I really want clarified is if the +25% vs artillery means you take less colateral damage when the enemy attacks with artillery. If so, other than in some very infrequent amphibious assault purposes, that's the only reason I see to make Marines.

That, and of course the cheat technique you mentioned of lining your island with units, but I haven't played multiplayer so I have never come across that particular exploit.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Infantry get's 25% Vs' gunpowder, marines ARE 24 but with Amphibious.

with the correct civ's and wonders, you can produce marines with combat 1, pinch and combat 2. Aggressive can get combat 3, or city defence 1,2,3 or combinations of above.

So basic infantry 24 V's marine 24 with amphibious. factor in city garrision, fortify etc marines still come out even if not better for your sea borne invasion. Plus NO COUNTER ATTACKS AT SEA. Heal on ships, sail ship into port to have ALL defend, or reload attackers in city back onto transports, to abandon city to milk more units out of victim.

Also, you can attack ACCROSS RIVERS, and have the river to defend against a counter attack. If your lucky enough to attack from a treed hill, accross a river...that's 100% defence point, that can't be reduced via artillery or bombers.

 

[Meatbuster]

Just 2 questions I've been thinking about.

2) I've never asked another civ to stop trading with another civ. When you do so, do they stop trading techs, as well as resources? And how long do they not trade for? If you ask a civ to declare peace, or to declare war, they will do so for a certain amount of time, but after a while they could declare war, or make peace on their own later. So to summarize, how long do they stop trading, do they not trade techs as well as resources, and do you get any negative diplo multipliers from the civ you've asked them to stop trading with?

1. they refuse to talk for 10 or so turns depending on gamespeed (like when someone asks you to stop trading and you do so)
2. the victim gets -1 with the other guy for "you have stopped trading"
3. all the + modifiers for "you have supplied us with resources" disappear between the victim and the other guy
4. the victim gets -1 with you for "you have negotiated a trade embargo"

Sometimes that loss in relationships might be what you need to let you bribe the civs into war.

 

[mike p]

Marines are also good as an anti tank unit. With Ambush they can beat tanks straight up and tanks will never get defensive bonuses against Marines, but Marines will get them against tanks. It helps to be Aggressive and start out with Combat I though, in which case it's easy to get them Ambush out the gate. They are also useful against Machine Guns and absolutely critical if you don't have oil.

 

[B1sh0p]

Thanks Robokai for that info. Never knew it would make them lose their + modifiers for past trading. That's very useful, if you're trying to worsen relations between 2 civs to prepare for a war.

And I never thought about not having oil. I suppose a Marine is probably your best friend if you don't have oil. I've just never been in a game that I didn't have access to oil.

 

[automator]

Marines are great. I'm glad the patch fixes the old "marines replaced by mech inf" thing. They get a nice bonus against artillery, so you can wipe up those things.

 

[wioneo]

Infantry should be able to upgrade to marines like they upgrade to machine guns. I have usually upgraded all of my city raiders to infantry by then. Also, in a late game invasion, you should always capture/raze coastal cities first. If they don't have any coastal cities, they can NEVER launch a counter attack on your homeland, and marines are great for this.

 

[drkodos]

I think, though, judging from previous Civs, that Marines exist to defeat the "cheat" of placing 1 military unit all around your island to ensure no invasions can occur. Marines can attack from a boat to the land, so there goes that technique.


Sam

In Civ 4, any military unit can attack from a boat onto land, but at a penalty.



Marines are excellent units. If I get to that point of the game I build them and use them frequently. Look at their strength. They muscle Infantry, and beat down Machine guns.

Are they a bread and butter mainstay? No. But they are not an esoteric one-trick pony unit either. It all depends on who uses and how they use.

 

[B1sh0p]

In my experience I've always found that by the time Marines are in, Mech Inf are just around the corner. And I don't quite see what good +25 vs artillery does, since Infantry deal with artillery just as well, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, I may find a use for Marines in my current game. I went to war with Cyria before I was able to put down oil wells. Well, now I want to start building Tanks, but I can't cause I don't have the wells in place. So in the absense of tanks, Marines are a pretty good option.

 

[cabert]

marines are... for naval attacks (duh!)
I never use a lot of those though, unless I'm playing America and the game lasts this long.

 

[Mind_worm]

In my experience I've always found that by the time Marines are in, Mech Inf are just around the corner. And I don't quite see what good +25 vs artillery does, since Infantry deal with artillery just as well, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, I may find a use for Marines in my current game. I went to war with Cyria before I was able to put down oil wells. Well, now I want to start building Tanks, but I can't cause I don't have the wells in place. So in the absense of tanks, Marines are a pretty good option.

you are researching industrialism way to late if mech infantry are just around the corner. I bee line for industrialism in the late game - Im not a huge fan of marines, but tanks are just wonderful, and its a prerequisite for 3 gorges damn tech. I usually have 10 techs to go before mech infantry. (of course I usually prioritize modern tanks before mech infantry)