2500 Bc

[wcil]

Let me just ask a noob question. There seems to be agreement that I set the worker in the wrong place the last round. I thought the consensus was to start a cottage. Was this the wrong place? Why? Where would have been better?

I'm not whining, I'm really just curious as I learn to play better.

Cheers!

I'd believe that there are more important things to do at this current moment in time. For instance, we should have connected the Ivory to our capital. That'll help our citizens become happy and let our city grow to population 7 without citizens, as opposed to 6.

And talking about growth, irrigating the bananas is not a bad idea either, especially as our city is using that square anyway, and the irrigation will assist our city get bigger even quicker. Cottages can come... later. (Esp. as we're not Financial, so the benefits from a town or a village by the river is negligible)

 

[Blkbird]

2550 BC : [...]

[...]

2050 BC : [...]

First, congratulations for having done a fairly good job - at least in my eyes.

However, the actions you've logged are a little bit hard to follow, specially the movements. May I suggest the following notation theme, named Numkey Notation, for the future, which I've use myself for my personal singlegame logs (yes, you need one if you're a fanatic micro-manager like me):

1a. Use numbers to indicate movement directions: 1 = south west, 2 = south, ..., 9 = north east. It's the same pattern as the numblock keyboard shortcuts you can use to move units around.

1b. If a unit moves several spaces in a turn, write the numbers one after another, just like the keys you would press to navigate the unit: 363 = one space SE, then one space E, then one space SE again.

2a. If a unit engages in a fight and kills an enemy, use "#" (as "checkmate" in chess) to note it: 4# = moved one space W and killed an enemy there, 9#1 = moved one space NE, killed an enemy there, and moved back automatically because there are more enemy units there so we can't occupy the space.

2b. If a unit fights, fails to kill the enemy, but successfully withdraws, use "+" (as "check" in chess) to note it: 8+2 = moved one space N, fought and withdrawn back.

2c. If a unit fights and dies, use "-" (as "strikethrough") to note it: 7- = moved NW, fought and got killed.

3. Use "0" to note "fortify" or "sleep": 220 = moved two spaces S and fortified.

4. To note certain points on the map, use significant geographical feature as reference point, and note the difference in X- and Y-axis (W/S or right/down as positive, E/N or left/up as negative): Peak +1/-2 = one space E and two spaces N of the peak (provided there is only one peak we could have possibly talking about, so confusion is ruled out), Karakorum -4/0 = four spaces W of Karakorum, Gold 0/0 = exactly where that gold is.

EDIT: I've posted this as a standalone thread in the Demogame forum. If you like to details of this notation, please go there.

 

[Blkbird]

The screenshot below suggests the build locations for the next two cities.

I'd like to suggest a different location, one roughly between "1" and "2": the spot north west of the horse (or north east of "1"), or Karakorum -4/-4, to use the "Numkey Notaion" (see above).

If we build the city there, we instantly get the horse and can start building a pasture. Later the rice and the cow will fall into our reach as well. That spot is also in a very fine distance to our capital, not too near and not too far either.

Further possible settling points for later are:

- Karakorum +5/+3, a coastal hill with immediate access to gems and later access to rice and gold.

- Karakorum -1/+8, also a coastal spot - very likely and hopefully to the ocean to our south west (in which case the spot has great strategical importance), and with access to copper, rice and gold after some growth.

 

[Blkbird]

We can research the following : Meditation (5), Polytheism(6), Sailing (6), Writing (7), Masonary (4), Horseback Riding (16), Iron Working (13), Metal Casting (28)

I strongly recommend Sailing, so as to build a galley (maybe even two) to protect our work boat and/or explore the coast line. The protection is important because babarian ships may come and detroy our work boat - it happend to me before. The exploration is important for obvious reasons.

 

[Blkbird]

Suggestions : Let Slave Gang 1 connect Beshabalik to our capital, and irrigate the wheat there. Slave Gang 2, when built, should irrigate the bananas below. This will help our city grow faster (We can change it to a plantation, once we discover the Calendar, anyway). We should finish our Barracks, and churn out an archer, followed by a settler. We should move them to build our next cities.

I second that.

Beshbalik should proceed onto an Obelisk, followed by another work boat once it's work boat is finished. This'll give us some minor culture, and let us claim the clam resource as well.

I'd suggest building a galley before we proceed to obelisk (see above).

I suggest spot 1 be taken ASAP, so that it'll act as a culture barrier to our neighbour's explorations.

Also agree here, just not exactly spot 1 (see above).

Please discuss if my actions were or were not worthy, and why. True, I took a risk by building a second city a bit far out, but I believe the rewards will be well worth it.

I strongly support your decision to build Beshbalik there. An early coastal city is very important in my eyes (usually I always build my capital on coast), and it's good we've reached far to claim all the space in between.

 

[DaveShack]

Obelisks obsolete very early, so it often isn't worth the trouble of building them unless we need a quick border expansion to get a resource. If we're not going to proceed towards the tech which obsoletes Obelisks (is that calendar, or compass?) then building them might be more reasonable.

 

[starbolt]

Obelisks obsolete very early, so it often isn't worth the trouble of building them unless we need a quick border expansion to get a resource. If we're not going to proceed towards the tech which obsoletes Obelisks (is that calendar, or compass?) then building them might be more reasonable.

It's calendar and I often avoid this tech for a bit anyway. The bananas are an argument in favor of Calendar but not a compelling one.

However, you can either build Stonehenge early (the computer doesn't seem to value it) or build a library first (theater in mid-game).

As an aside:
If you have a Holy City (and structure), I find building a mititary unit first will often give enough time for that religion to spread there and then you have the option to build a monastery instead. It's cheaper (therefore faster), gets you the same culture, and you trade some reasearch (25% vs 10% getting obsolete in the later mid-game) for the ability to designate a town for spreading the good word throughout your kingdom. Using this technique, I had a cultural victory without ever declaring a state religion <grin>.

 

[Blkbird]

If you have a Holy City (and structure), I find building a mititary unit first will often give enough time for that religion to spread there and then you have the option to build a monastery instead. It's cheaper (therefore faster), gets you the same culture, and you trade some reasearch (25% vs 10% getting obsolete in the later mid-game) for the ability to designate a town for spreading the good word throughout your kingdom. Using this technique, I had a cultural victory without ever declaring a state religion <grin>.

That's definitely a very interesting idea, which has been proven practical by your victory.

 

[starbolt]

Let me just ask a noob question. There seems to be agreement that I set the worker in the wrong place the last round. I thought the consensus was to start a cottage. Was this the wrong place? Why? Where would have been better?

I'm not whining, I'm really just curious as I learn to play better.

Cheers!

There will always be style differences so take this with a grain of salt.

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After farming up the corn, I would build a road in place to connect it to our capital so we'd get the trade good and the +1 Health benefit it offers. After roading the corn, I would road NW once, walk NW, place a camp (to get the hammer bonus in that tile), and road to connect the camp to my trade network.

If you still had turns, I would consider my settler builds and probably road up to the new city site. I feel this is stronger than building cottages because the new town will have access to whatever trade goods we've connected AND mutual town defense will improve as you can more easily share units between them. This generally generates more commerce and production by making workers available and I think the benefit easily matches early deployment of cottages.

At that point, I think the horse city build makes the most sense. After that, the northern coastal city site has merits, as does the marble site (Oracle, Great Library, a couple of religions buildings).

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My wife was under the the impression that you get a lot of these benefits just by having things in your cultural borders but the truth is that you only get credit for a commodity when it is connected via a trade route (which is deceptively similar).

I *think* I got credit for a commodity (iron in this case) that I mined and roaded that tile despite only being connected to that commodity by water and it was within my cultural borders (no attached town). I know roads and common waterways count as connectors but I thought that was only between cities; not cities and resources. I can't confirm this, but was odd enough to attract my attention when it told me I now had access to iron and I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone else has run into it.

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To answer your question (at long last), I tend to build my early cottages on already cleared grasslands (our banana tile wouldn't be a horrible place either) that cannot be easily irragated because the governer and likely the player would prefer to use that tile for growth which helps develop the cottage. You also don't lose any time moving from tile to an adjacent tile to make the next cottage.

The tile that the worker was developing has these strikes:
1) The build is delayed 3 turns moving into the forest and then waiting for the forest to be cleared (time enough for 2 cottages to be dropped).
2) The resulting tiles is one that needs to be improved further to be a desirably tile for growth. Since every population unit wants two food (more if unhealthy), grasslands offer unfettered growth. Plains only offers one food, so every two plains we work reduces our growth potential by one. The standard AI governor won't even work the tile until it has no better choice so you never see any early benefit from your cottage that doesn't cost you more.

Lastly, the reason I pause before building cottages on farmable squares is that the 3rd food unit gives you the flexibility to use mines for production without losing growth potential. Also, once you get Civil Service, you can use farmed territory (your city counts as a connector), to chain irrigation further inland. In our case, we might find it valuable to extend that irrigation to those inland plains (I'm primarily thinking about our eventual marble city).

 

[Blkbird]

I *think* I got credit for a commodity (iron in this case) that I mined and roaded that tile despite only being connected to that commodity by water and it was within my cultural borders (no attached town). I know roads and common waterways count as connectors but I thought that was only between cities; not cities and resources. I can't confirm this, but was odd enough to attract my attention when it told me I now had access to iron and I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone else has run into it.

I can confirm this. Waterways - rivers, lakes, oceans - do connect resources. I was surprised by that, too.

 

[Piparoo]

...

Lastly, the reason I pause before building cottages on farmable squares is that the 3rd food unit gives you the flexibility to use mines for production without losing growth potential. Also, once you get Civil Service, you can use farmed territory (your city counts as a connector), to chain irrigation further inland. In our case, we might find it valuable to extend that irrigation to those inland plains (I'm primarily thinking about our eventual marble city).

Thank you for the excellent and thoughtful response to my question. Thanks also to wcil for his thoughts on my question and for turn playing.

Cheers!

 

[Blkbird]

Lastly, the reason I pause before building cottages on farmable squares is that the 3rd food unit gives you the flexibility to use mines for production without losing growth potential. Also, once you get Civil Service, you can use farmed territory (your city counts as a connector), to chain irrigation further inland. In our case, we might find it valuable to extend that irrigation to those inland plains (I'm primarily thinking about our eventual marble city).

I totally agree that chained farms are extremely important for growth in thd mid-game. I'm however a little bit irritated by your intention to claim the marble so early in the game. Do we want to build wonders so early? Because if not, we can wait until our capital grows again and the marble spot falls into it, or some other place to find marble (it's rare, I know, but not unlocateable).

 

[wcil]

I've yet to encounter Barbarian Boats (but I play Pangeae / continents at Noble mostly)... So I dunno.

Vert -4, Horiz -4 from Karakorum is a great idea... Dunno why I didn't notice that!

Vert -4, Horiz +2 on the desert from Karakorum will also give us both the marble and the gold! As a down side, it wont be a coastal city. Moving to the coast will mean giving up the bonuses of the marble or the gold (though both will eventually come into our cultual borders)

The (-4,-4) is what I agree with totally though. (Civ 3 ICP has sorta spoiled me)

 

[Stilgar08]

Personally I wouldn't "waste" (no offence meant here!!) production for galleys right now. I tend to underprotect my units in my SP's though. The idea with the monastery (from starbolt) is excellent! If we don't have that choice I would suggest the obelisk for expanding our borders early (no other purpose there I have to admit).

Thanks to starbolt for your excellent description on worker-handling. I think that's my weakest spot when playing civ and therefore your remarks are greatly appreciated...

 

[scienide09]

While the idea of a galley for protection is a good one (there definitely are barb ships out there), I agree with the previous post by Stilgar08. We can get away with leaving a fishing boat unprotected for a while yet.
If we do see more barb activity, it'll come over land first.
From my experience, we probably don't have to worry about barb naval units until the continent we're on is entirely revealed by us and our neighbours.

 

[starbolt]

Thanks to starbolt for your excellent description on worker-handling. I think that's my weakest spot when playing civ and therefore your remarks are greatly appreciated...

Thanks for the kind words.

This kind of micromanagement plays to my strengths since I used to play chess professionally and opening theory analysis is second nature

 

[Chieftess]

BTW, do note that forest chops can be used to speed up wonders. (the same is true for buying, and poprushing wonders!)

 

[starbolt]

I'm however a little bit irritated by your intention to claim the marble so early in the game. Do we want to build wonders so early?

If I'm irritating you already, then you're probably taking this game too seriously

I should be clear that my arguments are intended to be backchannel discussion unless otherwise noted because I want to learn also. If I *really* wanted to implement these ideas I'd sign up to be a DP (which I've not done)... If I use words like "recommend", then I'm probably serious about it - lol

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Let's ignore the wonder argument (and we shouldn't) for the time being.

When worked by a city (not just within our cultural influence), this marble tile is worth 1 food and 2 hammers base. Improved, it's worth 1 food, 4 hammers, and 2 commerce. If you were excited about working the ivory (1/4/1) (and we shouldn't) then the marble should pique your interest. This tile is also accessible from the coast which makes it ideal for building up a monster research town. The nearby desert/plain squares are discouraging, but it's still quite a find. As to the rarity of marble, there seems to be ~1 such tile for every 2 civilizations (the same seems true of stone).

Still discounting the wonder argument (and we shouldn't) ... in the 5 turns we spent getting to the fish/crab/wheat square (a FABULOUS location, I agree), we could have travelled a road and settled in 1 turn and gotten up to 16 hammers and 8 commerce. That's 1/3 of The Oracle.

Finally, looking at the wonders... since marble will halve the production time, we have a tremendous edge over any competitors (even if they had the tech available before us). I'm including a tab-delimited .txt file that I recommend that you import into Excel and use the sorts/filters.

The first marble wonder, The Oracle, collects a very respectable 8 culture per turn until the end of the game, produces 2 GPP to Great Prophet (admitably one of the weaker GPs), and a free tech (which should be translated as ~1000 beakers) that you can immediately choose based upon your need/greed. I can't tell you how often this results in Music (Great Artist) or one of the later religions (and subsequent Holy City structure).

The second marble wonder, The Great Library, also produces 8 culture until the later middle game and 2 GPP to Great Scientist (Academy is very strong) and 2 free Scientists (which I think also contribute GPPs to Great Scientist as well as research). Winning the tech war is still a valuable weapon in winning Civ.

Lastly, when you get Music and either Hinduism or Islam (and 3 temples of that religion), you get the double speed production of their respective cathedrals which are monster culture and happiness structures. With two religious neighbors, we should get access to at least one of these religions assuming we don't discover one ourselves.

There are another half dozen structures to which marble contributes and those are season to taste in my opinion. My point about marble is that it should be respected as a potentially game-defining commodity; especially if it's within your starting sphere of influence.

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The better play, however, is to head our second settler NW (assuming you had pre-roaded to the ivory) and settle on the hill (or the square north of the hill) and gain access to horses. You could potentially have 1/2 a Keshik ready to go and you've severely pinched of expansion territory for our not-so close neighbors (Egypt, at least) looks far off. I like the hill better than the plain because you get a little more of the river for commerce, you get a more defensible position (important for a buffering frontier town), and at least half again as many forest chops to hurry production along. You'll almost certainly gain access to the wheat/cow through culture and you'll have room enough to build another town N or NNE to exploit these resources.

I'd then use that road as a launch point to build our third city where the DP built the second, and then built our fourth city on the marble coast to crank out Great Library.

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None of this has any bearing on the current direction of the game... I'm just explaining the reasons behind my suggestions.

 

[Blkbird]

[...]

None of this has any bearing on the current direction of the game... I'm just explaining the reasons behind my suggestions.

Very throughout analysis indeed, definitely worthy of a former chess pro.

I certainly agree with you that Marble and Stone can be "game defining". In fact, in this epic singlegame I've played on a Terra map, where the primary goal is to be the first to discover "the new continent", I did, and the first thing I did there is to find Marble and Stone and settle. I know how useful those resource has been to my game.

However, I generally believe in "later but powerful start" in building Wonders. I consider it more balanced to have at least 3, preferably 4 cities with all the basic infrastructure buildings of the classic/renaissance era first and start rushing for Wonders from there on. In my experience, cities that start with Wonders too early often get surpassed growth-wise by the later starters.

So, we *will* get that Marble, that's for sure. The question is when, and how - with a new city of via expansion of our capital.

 

[wcil]

We have no religions in grasp. Buddhism and Hinduism have both been claimed by the Spanish. That's the reason why I researched Obelisks, for quick Culture till Libraries.