(3-VT) Shift Forge and Colossus earlier in the tree, Earth Mother update

[Stalker0]

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/3-13-proposal-ancient-classical-bottom-tech-shakeup.681354/

Proposal:

Forge/Siege Foundry moves from Iron working to Bronze Working
Cost reduced from 150 to 110 (consistent with T2 ancient buildings)
Forge bonuses remain unchanged.

Earth Mother Changed to God of Fire
+1 to Mines on Resources
+2 to Forges

Colossus moves from Metal Casting to Iron Working
Cost reduced from 250 to 200 (consistent with T1 classical)
Number of Policies Required lowered from 5 to 4 (consistent with T1 classical)
Wonder bonuses remain unchanged


Rationale:
I think the idea presented in the original proposal has a strong core that is soured by going too far. We can do some nice simple shifts to give more oomph to the south side of the tree without disrupting strategies or needing entirely new resources. This proposal is easy to do, and focuses exactly on the problem, giving more incentive to get to bronze working and then to iron working.

 

[cidk2000]

no plus one to science to the forge? or is that overkill?

 

[DeAnno]

no plus one to science to the forge? or is that overkill?

I think Forges being moved back a full tier is easily a strong enough buff, it's quite a powerful building these days. That's a lot of hammers available right away.

 

[Stalker0]

no plus one to science to the forge? or is that overkill?

Neither this nor the original proposal are adding science to the forge. It already has 1 science.

 

[pineappledan]

Should it be God of Fire or Goddess of Fire? I dunno.

 

[ma_kuh]

I'd vote Goddess, in part simply because it's modifying Earth Mother.

 

[Siddorm]

These proposed changes to forge feel like overkill to me. I am thinking that forges are generally better than markets, barracks, stone works and walls.

 

[AndreyK]

I also think that forge is a very good building as is (it gets buffed with arena).

 

[KlHannibal2]

I would go for God of Fire, mostly thinking of Hephaesteus/Vulcanus

 

[CppMaster]

I would go for God of Fire, mostly thinking of Hephaesteus/Vulcanus

Yeah, it fits with forges

 

[pineappledan]

The original proposal was presenting a tradeoff; this is all the buffs without the nerf that was core to that proposal. Power creep.

 

[Stalker0]

The original proposal was presenting a tradeoff; this is all the buffs without the nerf that was core to that proposal. Power creep.

No hardwood removes a good measure of the bonus.

 

[DeAnno]

I admit the Forges in this proposal are disturbingly good, and I'm not sure how to nerf them reasonably without disrupting Engineers too much.

Maybe what BW actually needs is Spearmen to be better? I feel like Spearmen have lost a lot in the world since the Archer change.

 

[ma_kuh]

It was asked to be removed from this pair of proposals, but the +2 to Engineers was initially suggested to be moved to Workshop. I think that's a good change for many reasons mentioned in other threads. It's a very sensible way to guard against the Forge from power creeping without disrupting long-term Engineer power.

 

[pineappledan]

Could also just go forward with reducing the mines bonus to +1 , without the stipulation that they get +2 on mines with resources. Just a flat +1 to all mines.

I feel that was a non-nerf anyways, meant to give the appearance of a nerf. I am never building or assigning to non-resource tiles for blank mines until much later into the game anyways.

 

[azum4roll]

Iron is a VERY good tile with Forge. If we decide to move Forge but not Iron, the Iron bonus on Forge needs to be lowered a bit. Remember that these tiles are randomly placed.

 

[Recursive]

@Stalker0 The changes to the Forge conflicts with queued proposal 2-08a: (2-08) Reduce Mine Yields Proposals

You'll need to remove that from the proposal or withdraw it.

 

[Stalker0]

@Stalker0 The changes to the Forge conflicts with queued proposal 2-08a: (2-08) Reduce Mine Yields Proposals

You'll need to remove that from the proposal or withdraw it.

I’withdraw for now, we can remake once that initial ratification completes

 

[Recursive]

Proposal withdrawn/vetoed due to conflict with queued proposal.