[Vote] (4-29) Nerf The Siheyuan's Yields

[pineappledan]

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VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 29
The Siheyuan is too strong and too plentiful for how good it is. We need to reduce the yields on it.

Current Siheyuan
1 1 1 1 (doubled during WLTED)
+1 at Civil Service
+1 at Architecture
+1at Electricity

New Siheyuan
1 1 1 (doubled during WLTED)
+1 at Civil Service
+1 at Architecture
+1at Electricity

 

[pineappledan]

I agree that we should look at ways to change the WLTED trigger. The Siheyuan being too strong is a contributing factor however; I think both changes should be made.

My proposed alternative WLTED trigger is the following:
All cities enter a WLTED for 5 turns every time 8 new Citizens are born on empire.
Remove the % yields bonuses for WLTED (lots of other sources of % bonuses in the game, Indonesia has some in their kit for example. China's main power is its unique trigger and this % modifier waters it down)

That would at least get the WLTED trigger onto a single repeatable trigger and off the turn 1 settle.

I think a new or nerfed WLTED trigger is a separate discussion and nerfing the siheyuan is a straightforward change for now.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

That's a pretty big nerf, is China really that strong now? (I didn't have the chance to try her just yet)

 

[pineappledan]

That's a pretty big nerf, is China really that strong now? (I didn't have the chance to try her just yet)

Yes.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes.

Double Yes. Honestly my last 2 china games I had like 7 of those UI for my 10 cities (just terrible terrain for them) and I'm still just dominating everyone like I was playing a difficulty lower. Even when I don't optimize the WLTKD I'm still kicking butt, and god help you if you actually do optimize them with MoH, Theocracy, and Synagogues.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for the feedback!

Just looking at the improvement itself, while it certainly does not look weak, I'd have thought that the relatively low number of yields combined with the placing restriction make it balanced(ish), but I guess with a huge population potential it can snowball easily, so that makes sense.

I'm just hoping that we don't swing to the other side and nerf it too much, that's all.

 

[Recursive]

Sponsored.

 

[Anarcomu]

but I guess with a huge population potential it can snowball easily, so that makes sense.

Actually the China's UA allow them to get a nice food bonus.
I think their strength is that the siheyuans provide a lot of different yields, all of them contribute to fight unhappiness ; their UA cover food, so your cities still growth at a respectable path.
You end up being able to still found new cities at an acceptable speed, and thus you benefit from WLTED all the time.

 

[Stalker0]

Actually the China's UA allow them to get a nice food bonus.
I think their strength is that the siheyuans provide a lot of different yields, all of them contribute to fight unhappiness ; their UA cover food, so your cities still growth at a respectable path.
You end up being able to still found new cities at an acceptable speed, and thus you benefit from WLTED all the time.

That large food bonus also fights unhappiness as well, so China has a built in unhappiness counter to its rapid growth, one of the reasons they grow so well.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I played one game with the current China. They were in the top third of the AIs, but were never top (that was Arabia followed by Austria). It iso n Milae's map which has a lot of resources and water ways, allowing for fewer UIs.

Based on this game, I don't think they are OP.

 

[Stalker0]

I played one game with the current China. They were in the top third of the AIs, but were never top (that was Arabia followed by Austria). It iso n Milae's map which has a lot of resources and water ways, allowing for fewer UIs.

Based on this game, I don't think they are OP.

Even the most OP AI is not going to top the charts every game, you have to look at several to start drawing conclusions. Lvern has a great thread in general where he runs dozens of AI only games to show which civs tend to win more and China is often near the top

 

[KlHannibal2]

Even the most OP AI is not going to top the charts every game, you have to look at several to start drawing conclusions. Lvern has a great thread in general where he runs dozens of AI only games to show which civs tend to win more and China is often near the top

Right, that includes China with the new UI.

China is among the tip civs. But does that necesditate a nerf? The UI is way stronger than the rest of the kit. And do we want all civs to be exactly at the same power level? Personally, I prefer a certain assymmetry. I greatly enjoy having some S tier civs in the game like Songhai.
The win stat does not say China is its own tier, above all other civs.

 

[Stalker0]

And do we want all civs to be exactly at the same power level? Personally, I prefer a certain assymmetry. I greatly enjoy having some S tier civs in the game like Songhai.

"Exact" same, probably not, but I think you do want at least some reasonable balance. Right now China is winning 8-9x more often than the weaker civs, and 2x more often than the bottom half of civs. That does seem reallly good. Further its not just the AI results, but in my playtests, China just feels too "easy". I'm an Immortal player, but when I play China it feels like I'm playing Emperor, everything is just....easy. So that plus the AI test results suggest a nerf is needed.

I'm not saying nerf them into the ground, but shaving some yields off I do think is warranted.

 

[pineappledan]

Player feedback has also uniformly been that the improvement — and China more generally — is unreasonably strong, but it’s easier to cite controlled AI stats than dig up 10+ forum and discord posts.

 

[KlHannibal2]

"Exact" same, probably not, but I think you do want at least some reasonable balance. Right now China is winning 8-9x more often than the weaker civs, and 2x more often than the bottom half of civs. That does seem reallly good. Further its not just the AI results, but in my playtests, China just feels too "easy". I'm an Immortal player, but when I play China it feels like I'm playing Emperor, everything is just....easy. So that plus the AI test results suggest a nerf is needed.

I'm not saying nerf them into the ground, but shaving some yields off I do think is warranted.

If the win rate is the reason for the nerf, why not nerf Austria (higher win rate) and Barzul (same win rate)?

Well, let the vote decide. I think both our views are valid, depending in how close the power level of civs should be.

 

[pineappledan]

Austria and Brazil were just recently heavily nerfed. Those AI games don’t reflect the new Austria nerfs. The Brazil changes are in there. And yes, I do intend to propose some nerfs for Brazil soon

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I'm not saying nerf them into the ground, but shaving some yields off I do think is warranted.

Yeah but culture, probably the best part, that's a huge nerf. And the UI won't get that until 2nd half of medieval era, where its amount is too weak to snowball or be a real threat to balance. Even if the yields from techs are doubled from WLTED (which I assume is the case), having no adjacency-synergy or anything similar but having placement restriction (which is not that bad to be honest), they do not look that threatening.

But as I said, I haven't played them for a while, nor did I encounter China in my last few games, so haven't witnessed its effect in game, so I'll take your and PDan's words for it. I'm just asking that don't make hasty decisions and nerf an interesting UI too much or make it simply uninteresting.

I'm wondering if would it be possible, that it gives +1 culture only during WLTED? It could be in a Lua hook I think. Yes it wouldn't be consistent with the other yields, but would be a significant nerf while still retaining its interesting and strong aspect.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Yeah but culture, probably the best part, that's a huge nerf. And the UI won't get that until 2nd half of medieval era, where its amount is too weak to snowball or be a real threat to balance. Even if the yields from techs are doubled from WLTED (which I assume is the case), having no adjacency-synergy or anything similar but having placement restriction (which is not that bad to be honest), they do not look that threatening.

But as I said, I haven't played them for a while, nor did I encounter China in my last few games, so haven't witnessed its effect in game, so I'll take your and PDan's words for it. I'm just asking that don't make hasty decisions and nerf an interesting UI too much or make it simply uninteresting.

I'm wondering if would it be possible, that it gives +1 culture only during WLTED? It could be in a Lua hook I think. Yes it wouldn't be consistent with the other yields, but would be a significant nerf while still retaining its interesting and strong aspect.

Another idea for a slight nerf: make it unlock one or two techs later but keep all the yields the same.

 

[pineappledan]

Even if the yields from techs are doubled from WLTED (which I assume is the case)

yields from tech do not double during WLTED. Only the base yields

having no adjacency-synergy or anything similar but having placement restriction

the adjacency synergy IS the placement restriction

 

[Revolutionist_8]

yields from tech do not double during WLTED. Only the base yields

Wow, that's even worse then. Sooo - let's assume a standard grassland tile - yields from a Siheyuan in modern era: 2 3 3 4 4 (at most). Well, it's certainly not bad, but I just don't see how it is as powerful as you've described. By that time pastures, camps, mines, etc. get so many yields from techs, buildings, policies that they easily match with these numbers.

The only seriously strong thing I see here that has the potential to make China snowball early, is the culture that early on (I forgot which tech unlocks the Siheyuan, but I assume it's quite early). If that is removed, what's left? Science is really nice, but it has nowhere near the potential (especially with so many other science focused civs).

Anyways, that's just my 2cents. I seriously have to go give it a go, because I just honestly don't see the huge problem here (other than maybe the early +2 culture from 1 tile, that can be spammed relatively easily).

the adjacency synergy IS the placement restriction

Yes but they don't gain anything from each other, right? They need to be placed next to a city or next to two other, that's it. There is no synergy buff, like farms, Ekis, etc. Am I missing something?