[Vote] (5-58) Number of Spies & Shadow Networks Balance

[azum4roll]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 25 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 58

Current number of spies:
On founding Capital, England receives 1 spy.
On first player reaching Renaissance, everyone receives 1 spy per 10 CS, minimum 1.
On player reaching Industrial era or later, player receives 1 spy per 10 CS, minimum 1.
On completion of a building or adoption of a policy that gives spies, player receives the listed spy number, plus 1 spy per 10 CS if there are at least 20 at game start.

Current Shadow Networks:

• Receive 25% of Science generated by Allied City-States.
• +3% Culture in Capital for every active Spy or Diplomat (up to 30%).
• Spy mission duration reduced by 1 turn for your Spies.
• +3 Science from Constabularies and Police Stations.
• +1 Science from Specialists.

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Problems:
There is a jump of 2 spies between 19 CS and 20 CS (or Standard and Large if you use default CS numbers) for each building or policy granting spies. This skews the balance of such buildings or policies with respect to map size. We can do better with a smoother increment.
Shadow Networks provides only +6% Culture for Standard in Renaissance, but +15% for Large, or even +27% if you go with the maximum 41 CS. The strength of a policy should not scale directly with map size.

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Proposal:
Introducing the new variable Spy Needs. A Spy is recruited when Spy Needs reach a new multiple of 20. This should be properly conveyed via notifications (A new spy has been recruited because your Spy Needs has reached X) and the top panel (that shows current Spy Needs amount). This is neither a strategic resource nor a yield, just stored in memory per player. The number is expected to never decrease.

For the sake of simplicity, let N = (2 * number of major civs + number of CS) at game start. N = 32 for Standard, 40 for Large, etc. N is minimum 20.

• On founding Capital, England receives 20 Spy Needs.
• On first player reaching Renaissance, everyone receives N Spy Needs.
• On player reaching Industrial era or later, player receives N Spy Needs.
• Foreign Service, Covert Action, National Intelligence Agency provide N Spy Needs.
• Bletchley Park provides 2N Spy Needs.
• Double Agents provide 3N Spy Needs.

Shadow Networks:
+3% Culture in Capital for every active Spy or Diplomat => +3% in Capital for every N Spy Needs, where N is (2 * number of major civs + number of CS) at game start.
If possible, substitute N with the real number and remove the explanation in the UI.
The cap is removed as it's impossible to reach.

 

[azum4roll]

Simple alternative considered (feel free to counterpropose with this):

• On founding Capital, England receives 1 Spy.
• On first player reaching Renaissance, everyone receives 1 Spy per 10 CS, minimum 1.
• On player reaching Industrial era or later, player receives 1 Spy per 10 CS, minimum 1.
• Foreign Service, Covert Action, National Intelligence Agency provide 1 Spy per 10 CS, minimum 1.
• Bletchley Park provides 1 Spy per 8 CS, minimum 1.
• Double Agents provide 1 Spy per 5 CS, minimum 1.

Spy count is unchanged on Standard.

Shadow Networks:
+3% Culture in Capital for every active Spy or Diplomat => +3% Culture in Capital for every active Spy or Diplomat, divided by every 10 CS (not sure how to word it)
The cap is removed as it's impossible to reach.

Downside is it doesn't consider major civs and still has big jumps, so I went for the proposed idea. But at least there's no longer the 20 CS clause, and Shadow Networks is more balanced.

 

[Arthur Jama]

I like the proposal in the first post, I somewhat dislike the wording but I can't think of anything better.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

If possible, substitute N with the real number and remove the explanation in the UI.

This isn‘t possible. But we can move N into the threshold that needs to be exceeded to get a spy:
Each era, get 100 Spy Points. Get 200 Spy Points for building Bletchley Park, etc.
Gain a new Spy for every X Spy Points you have, X a value depending on the number of players and city-states (X = 100*20/32 = 62 on Standard, X = 50 on Large etc).

 

[azum4roll]

Well you can implement it however you like, as long as it works the same and the UI clearly conveys it to players. Oh and also England gets exactly 1 spy at game start.

 

[axatin]

yes, of course, it will work exactly as you proposed it

 

[DoveCDog]

If Spy Needs always scales with N for everything besides England, won't England's bonus be useless? If N=32, and all bonuses give multiples of 32, won't +20 Spy Needs not do anything?

 

[azum4roll]

+20 Spy Needs gives exactly one spy. One N could mean one or multiple spies.

However, @axatin 's proposed implementation changes it to N = one spy, but spy sources give one or more N. Will be the same at the end.

 

[Stalker0]

So in terms of a standard speed, standard size game with normal CS numbers, has anything actually changed? Is this just for alternate options or is this affecting the "standard game" as well?

 

[azum4roll]

So in terms of a standard speed, standard size game with normal CS numbers, has anything actually changed? Is this just for alternate options or is this affecting the "standard game" as well?

Yes. You gain, in average, 1.6 spies per era in Standard settings. Or 1 in Renaissance, 2 in Industrial, 1 in Modern, 2 in Atomic, 2 in Information.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes. You gain, in average, 1.6 spies per era in Standard settings. Or 1 in Renaissance, 2 in Industrial, 1 in Modern, 2 in Atomic, 2 in Information.

so I will gain 3 extra spies in a standard game? Damn

 

[youngsteve]

More spies? We need less of them. More reason not to use Espionage.

 

[axatin]

It would be good if the number of spies scaled better with map size than it does currently. With the current system of 1 Spy on Standard and below and 2 Spies on Large, the impact of Espionage depends very much on the map size played. While it's like that, it's very hard to make the system balanced. An improved scaling like the one proposed here is an important prerequisite for further work towards a better Espionage system.

The alternative to having more than one spy per era in a standard game would be having less than one spy per era for smaller map sizes. This can also be implemented using the proposed system, simply by changing the threshold from 20 to 32.