(5-VT) Golden Age Removal Series: Great Artist Bulb Reduction Proposals

[Recursive]

Proposal (originally 29)
Discussion Thread: (5-VT) Golden Age Removal Series: Great Artist Bulb Reduction
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @Legen

Current situation:
Great Artists give a large sum of GAPs when expended.
The amount of GAPs scales by 20% for each active theming bonus on empire.

Proposal:
reduce the theming bonus scaling on GArtists to 10%

Rationale:
There are too many sources of GAP in the game, which is contributing to a problem of perpetual GAs in the late game. They make the GA system boring and uninteractive
GArtist bulbs are absurdly large, often giving enough GAPs for multiple GAs at once.

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Proposal 29a has been vetoed by Recursive.

Reason: As things are, this proposal would result in the mechanic being non-functional.

Counterproposal (originally 29a)
Discussion Thread: (5-VT) Change Great Artist Bulb Formula
Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll

Current Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = total per turn and instant and gained in the last 10 turns. Note that does NOT contribute to this.
Modifier: +20% per themed Great Work set
Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
Scaling with game speed

Proposed Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = 3x total per turn and instant gained in the last 10 turns.
Modifier: +10% per themed Great Work set
Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
Scaling with game speed

Rationale:
I agree with @pineappledan that there is a problem of perpetual GAs in the late game. I do NOT agree that is the problem and that it should not be a yield. On the other hand, I think should be more distinct from and not be a strictly worse version of it.
Other than the very first Golden Age, early/mid game Golden Ages feel right. Which means we only need to increase the first Golden Age cost (refer to my other GA counterproposal) and adjust lategame acquisition, which mainly comes from Great Artist bulbs and Stadium (refer to yet another of my GA counterproposals)
Tourism is currently counted in Great Artist bulb formula for some unknown reason. It's inconsistent with other Great People yield bulbs, which only count the yield type it's giving out. Plus, with the theming modifier in the formula, Great Works contribute both to the base and the modifier, which results in the current lategame explosion. We should focus more on alone, so civs can benefit from Golden Ages without going for CV.
Counting more helps to distinguish and

 

[pineappledan]

I never got an answer so I am reposting here:

Proposed Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = 3x total per turn and instant gained in the last 10 turns.
Modifier: +10% per themed Great Work set
Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
Scaling with game speed

While I think there are too many sources of GAPs in the game, it’s still possible that you could have none. It is possible to avoid picking any bonuses with GAPs and play a game without any GAP sources.

So what does this new formula do in the event that your GAPs per turn is zero?

 

[azum4roll]

I never got an answer so I am reposting here:

While I think there are too many sources of GAPs in the game, it’s still possible that you could have none. It is possible to avoid picking any bonuses with GAPs and play a game without any GAP sources.

So what does this new formula do in the event that your GAPs per turn is zero?

Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
You even quoted it.

 

[pineappledan]

So if you didn’t pick artistry your bulb is just a flat amount, because you took out the only yield source for the calculation that all civs are guaranteed to have:

This doesn’t sound very thought through. The calculation should include some yield that every civ has. I liked the idea of including Happiness into the calculation some way. Better than exclusively using a yield type some civs won’t have any access to.

 

[Stalker0]

So if you didn’t pick artistry your bulb is just a flat amount, because you took out the only yield source for the calculation that all civs are guaranteed to have:

It’s not a flat amount, it’s 50% of the current cost of a GA.

I under stand your point but your words suggests the bulb doesn’t scale, and that’s not true

 

[Rekk]

it’s 50% of the current cost of a GA.

The first GA, not current. Which is super low when you start expending your first Artist, not to mention your third or fourth.

 

[pineappledan]

Of the first golden age. A static amount. At the current level that is 300. If either of the proposals to increase the first GA go through that is increased to 500

 

[Stalker0]

The first GA, not current. Which is super low when you start expending your first Artist, not to mention your third or fourth.

ah, well add that to the list of mechanics that wasn't clear

I do think PDANs has a stronger point then.

 

[Captain Carrot]

While I think there are too many sources of GAPs in the game, it’s still possible that you could have none. It is possible to avoid picking any bonuses with GAPs and play a game without any GAP sources.

Is it really a problem though? If you go out of your way to have 0 GAP/turn then you probably don't really care about getting GAs all that much. I think it's fine to not get much out of the bulb if you don't work for it.

Also keep in mind that this is @azum4roll 's version, and while it doesn't directly conflict with any of your proposals, he clearly doesn't share your vision about the widespread availability of GAP/turn, and so his proposal is designed with the current situation in mind. I think currently ending up with 0 GAP/turn is highly improbable (unless you're specifically going for it as a challenge or something) and taking some bonuses for that later in the game if you change your mind isn't too difficult.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah it's clearly a problem that the majority of players will have a bulb that doesn't scale its base amount. A GP that just flatlines all game.

I think currently ending up with 0 GAP/turn is highly improbable (unless you're specifically going for it as a challenge or something) and taking some bonuses for that later in the game if you change your mind isn't too difficult.

It's an entirely normal thing to happen. If you take a look at what things give GAPs, there are only a handful of policies/beliefs/wonders that give GAPs before Stadiums.

Even the policy branch that unlocks faith purchasing Artists has no GAP source at all. Artistry is the only of 9 policy branches that gives GAPs, and only about 1/5th of beliefs give them as a yield, so it's more probable than not that if you didn't prioritize them, you won't have any GAP sources until late game.

The obvious solution is to incorporate empire happiness in the bulb calculation. Everyone generates that, and surplus Happiness is the main way Golden Ages are generated in most games. It's weird to count GAPs without counting Happiness; GAPs function purely as a subset of happiness in every other respect. This bulb calculation is equivalent to an ability scaling off Border Growth Points and excluding Culture.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal 29a has been vetoed by Recursive.

Reason: As things are, this proposal would result in the mechanic being non-functional.

For fairness, this set of proposals has been vetoed.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.