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[member66170]

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[Seabastian Civ]

Finisher: 1 unit maintenance free per 5 pop in puppet cities. Great generals can be bought with faith (same as now).
Lowers unit maintenance cost in a more 'fun' and interactive way than just free units. Also rewards those who used honor to conquer an empire more than those who just used it for nothing. Can be thought of as representing levies raised from the semi independent parts of the empire.

Whoa, way too powerful. By the industrial era, a large empire would have 10 free units. Take Freedom and you're up to 16.

 

[wilro85]

I like those changes. I don't think that the finisher is too powerful as the free units would basically need to be garrisons in the puppet cities for the happiness & culture from Military Caste. Combine it with the policy from tradition that garrisoned units cost no maintenance and yes, you can start getting a big army, but now you've spend two policies in tradition when Liberty is usually better for a wide puppet empire.

If there is a lot of pushback on the finisher I'd suggest another alternative:
Finisher - Reconstruction: Cities with garrison end resistance 50% faster. May purchase buildings in puppeted cities for 150% base cost.

 

[katfish]

You complain about honor tree? Look at commerce. Got me really mad when i played venice archipelago map

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well for Military Caste, I would say

2 Happy per Garrison nonrecon unit
1?2 Culture per exp building


Finisher I would keep the original (GG with Faith, gold from unit kill)

Vassalage: I would just say +50%?100% gold in tribute from CS, +30?50% to ability to threaten CS

 

[ixias]

I think some of the changes you propose are good, but some are a bit too powerful. I tweaked the original tree with some of your suggestions and posted below.

Opener - Adopting Honor gives a +33% combat bonus against Barbarians, and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Encampments spawn in revealed territory. Gain Culture for the empire from each barbarian unit killed. Unlocks building the Statue of Zeus wonder.

Warrior Code - +15% Production when training Melee units and 2 Melee Units appear outside of the Capital.

Professional Army (Warrior Code) - Garrisoned Units cost no maintenance and each city with a Garrison increases empire Happiness by 1 and Culture by 2. Gold cost of upgrading Military Units reduced by 33%.


Discipline - +15% combat strength for military Units which have another military Unit in an adjacent tile. Construct Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies 50% faster.

Military Tradition (Discipline) - Military Units gain 50% more Experience from combat and a Great General appears outside the Capital. Great Generals are earned 25% faster.

Military Caste (Military Tradition) - Walls, Castles, Arsenals, and Military Bases produce +1 Happiness. Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies produce +1 Culture.

Finisher - Adopting all policies in the Honor tree will grant Gold for each enemy unit killed and Land Unit Maintenance cost reduced by 2% per promotion. It also allows the purchase of Great Generals with Faith starting from the Industrial Era.

And while I agree that Commerce/Exploration need to be fixed/combined, this thread is about Honor since, out of the 4 Ancient Era policies, it's generally the weakest (Piety could be argued as weak, but Religions are very flexible so they can make up for certain issues with the tree itself).

 

[Gort]

You complain about honor tree? Look at commerce. Got me really mad when i played venice archipelago map

So... don't take it on an archipelago map? There's still plenty of good stuff in Commerce even if you do. +2 happiness from all luxuries is brilliant.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

+2 happiness from all luxuries is brilliant.

It's the only one, though!

 

[Santa Maria]

Yes I agree with the changes, it would make Honor and early wars much more viable.

 

[Keirador]

I don't get all the moping about Honor. It's for warmongering, and it's great for that. It's not really as powerful as Liberty or Tradition. . . but nothing is. It's middle of the pack in my opinion.

+50% experience means you're gonna be getting ranged units with Logistics and Range WAY faster, and you're gonna generate more Great Generals than you could possibly need to oversee an army, so you can deploy tons of Citadels either to create chokes or nab territory with important tiles/resources.

+1 Happiness and +2 Culture per garrisoned city is not trivial in the early game, either. And gold for killing enemy units? That can power a warmonger's entire economy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It's the only one, though!

That's mostly because Great Merchants are unbalanced.

It would probably be good if their trade mission gave ~50% more gold +influence (and let the GMoV only get a 50% bonus trade mission instead of 2x)
...and the CustomHouse /Manufactury output should be changed from 4 (+1 in Renaissance techs) to 6 (+2 with Renaissance techs)

making them actually worthwhile.

 

[Snuffleupagus]

I don't get all the moping about Honor. It's for warmongering, and it's great for that. It's not really as powerful as Liberty or Tradition. . . but nothing is. It's middle of the pack in my opinion.

+50% experience means you're gonna be getting ranged units with Logistics and Range WAY faster, and you're gonna generate more Great Generals than you could possibly need to oversee an army, so you can deploy tons of Citadels either to create chokes or nab territory with important tiles/resources.

+1 Happiness and +2 Culture per garrisoned city is not trivial in the early game, either. And gold for killing enemy units? That can power a warmonger's entire economy.

I think the moping is becuase it's NOT great for warmongering. Liberty or Tradition is still better if you're going to warmonger. Honor is certainly *fun* and I've taken it a few times for warmongering, but I always fill it out AFTER doing liberty or tradition.

 

[shattergod]

Honor needs to provide a science bonus.
Honor opener provides a free general. Warrior Code provides half of a killed units combat bonus as a bonus to science, great general tile improvements provide a +3 Science bonus.

 

[Strategist83]

There's no need for any change to Honor, it's plenty strong as is. The reason many think it's a weaker tree is it's not really necessary against the AI, against which you already have considerable tactical advantages and don't really need the additional firepower Honor provides. This has nothing to do with game balance, though, just AI. You should complain about and request changes for the AI instead. Honor is a much, much better option than either Liberty or Tradition if you're planning for conquest, only the deeply flawed AI give you the impression otherwise. Real opponents don't just roll over and die like current AI does - conquests require an actual army rather than the little tagteam of composite bows and a warrior most people apparently use - and that's where you need the hefty bonuses like the unit production speed increase, the free Great General (+15% combat strength) and Discipline policy (another +15%) provide.

Many of the changes suggested here so far are either outrageously unbalanced (+2 happy from luxuries - there's a reason this sits at the extreme bottom of the Commerce tree) or flat out misunderstood (Honor, the warfare tree, certainly should not provide any bonuses to science). The suggestions laid out in the original post are good, except they're much too powerful (stuff like three free units that early is game-breaking). It's also a misunderstanding wanting to provide bonuses specifically to puppet cities; you aren't really supposed to keep cities as puppets for the entire length of a game.

 

[crabe]

Agree with Strategist83 about the general strength of the Honor tree, the general weakness of the AI, and the inappropriateness of some of the suggestions here. The tree is good if you're actually going to use it properly (you generally want to start your rampage the turn you take the finisher and never look back). The "problem" is that the tree doesn't provide enough gold before you finish it, compared to all the free stuff that Liberty and Tradition get you. You need to make up the difference with what Honor does get you - more and stronger units. Boosts from Great General, Discipline, and more promotions from Military Tradition is nothing to sneeze at, but the only way they're going to measure up to what you get from Tradition or Liberty is if you use them to take multiple capitals. As others have mentioned, exacting tribute from city-states is key to funding the army needed to get this started.

Seriously though, imagine playing as Attila and getting early maintenance-free units. What chance would your neighbours have?

Lord Olleus, do you have a source on the Devs specifically introducing puppet cities to ease players from the burdens of managing cities? It certainly doesn't help you if you build your own cities! Puppets give you happiness penalties. For the most part you should annex them when you can build a courthouse (Try playing as Venice and puppetting every CS you come across). And conquering a couple of capitals is a huge boost in and of itself. Capitals will have luxuries that should provide for all the happiness the city requires and then some.

 

[Santa Maria]

I think Honor is very underpowered. It definitely does very little to support your early conquests, I get a very high negative gpt as Attila or Assyria, etc. when going warmongering.
1. The Prof. Armies offer half the cost for building Barracks,etc. but at that point I have Barracks already built.
2. You don't get any early gold, just from the finisher which is too late, beacause I am already bankrupt.
3. Other bonuses are nice, but minor, and going Tradition is a much better choice. I think Honor should be able to help developing your empire through conquest right from the start.

To the Attila point - it should be really hard to fend him off, beacause his only chance is to conquer. Right now it is easy -> you go Tradition, then build some Archers and you are safe. With stronger Honor he would be much more dangerous.

 

[Santa Maria]

One more point - try to go Honor right from the start and warmonger and compare it to going Tradition and have 1-3 friends to send trade routes to. Then you will understand that Honor really needs a buff.

 

[crabe]

I think Honor is very underpowered. It definitely does very little to support your early conquests, I get a very high negative gpt as Attila or Assyria, etc. when going warmongering.
1. The Prof. Armies offer half the cost for building Barracks,etc. but at that point I have Barracks already built.
2. You don't get any early gold, just from the finisher which is too late, beacause I am already bankrupt.
3. Other bonuses are nice, but minor, and going Tradition is a much better choice. I think Honor should be able to help developing your empire through conquest right from the start.

To the Attila point - it should be really hard to fend him off, beacause his only chance is to conquer. Right now it is easy -> you go Tradition, then build some Archers and you are safe. With stronger Honor he would be much more dangerous.

The AI is stupid though. He would be more dangerous, but what about in the hands of someone who actually knows what he's doing? What would he be then? I'm not even talking about multiplayer. As it is it's ridiculously easy to take the nearest two capitals with the Huns no matter what policies you take, but Honor will get you more (and better) military units, faster. That doesn't make it better but it's not "strictly" worse either. All things being equal Tradition is obviously better in more circumstances but how often are all things equal?

If you're bankrupt by the time you get to the finisher you're doing it wrong. You need enough units, but not too many; you need to demand tribute from city-states; and you need to be pillaging cities for gold. Don't rush buy things; it's normal to stay in the red for gold, so you need to keep your reserves up. Most important you need to strike quickly! If you build units and then don't take anything with them, then you should go broke.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It needs better timed abilities... Left side is good for this.. Right is poorly timed)
Ie
Level 1... Help build an army... Fast/free exp buildings should be here.
Level 2... Better fighting/benefits
Level 3... Better conquest benefits...upgrades here is good

I do think removing the building based happiness was good. In return they need better unit based happiness. (2 per nonrecon garrison... At professional army... Warrior caste can be maint free garrisons and culture from exp buildings)

 

[crawf0rd]

I think the issue with honor is its lack of general empire bonuses. Liberty and tradition give production gold and food bonuses in a manner that doesn't require you to make or kill units to benefit from. Military caste is a good example for what honor should have. There should be a swords into plowshares policy, which is like the belief, but perhaps gives you the food bonus while at war.
In my game as the ottomans, I went honor, and by the renaissance I had 4 cities, a low pop capital, and production poor surrounding cities. Needless to say I was done for. My bonuses just couldn't keep up with other civs'.