.

One idea to improve Piety would be to add some :c5culture: As it is right now, Piety is the only early social policy tree which does not offer any bonus :c5culture:. This makes social policies take longer in addition to having generally weaker social policies than the other tree options.

My recommendation would be to give +1 :c5culture: to Shrines and Temples. Perhaps this could be added to the 1st tier policy which gives +1 :c5faith: to Shrines and Temples.

This small tweak would help to balance Piety.

That's a good idea, but I wouldn't add it to the +1 faith from Shrines and Temples policy; using 2 policies to get to that policy is already one of Piety's best uses, so I'd put it further down in the tree.
 
One idea to improve Piety would be to add some :c5culture: As it is right now, Piety is the only early social policy tree which does not offer any bonus :c5culture:. This makes social policies take longer in addition to having generally weaker social policies than the other tree options.

My recommendation would be to give +1 :c5culture: to Shrines and Temples. Perhaps this could be added to the 1st tier policy which gives +1 :c5faith: to Shrines and Temples.

This small tweak would help to balance Piety.
There is Holy Site culture, but it is at the end of the tree.

Edit: It does give you tile-based culture, which both improves your city border growth and can be converted into tourism, though. (As opposed to the culture you get from the Fine Arts policy, for instance.)
 
One idea to improve Piety would be to add some :c5culture: As it is right now, Piety is the only early social policy tree which does not offer any bonus :c5culture:. This makes social policies take longer in addition to having generally weaker social policies than the other tree options.

My recommendation would be to give +1 :c5culture: to Shrines and Temples. Perhaps this could be added to the 1st tier policy which gives +1 :c5faith: to Shrines and Temples.

This small tweak would help to balance Piety.

I like your idea. Also, the opener should give a free religious building (shrine or temple) instead of just increasing production rate.
I also agree that Liberty could use a tweek. Moving the free settler policy to the first tier and +2 happiness per city connection would solve the problem.

As with Honor: It should alleviate negative aspects of warmongering, the main one being inability to trade.
 
Tradition is already a tremendous policy tree without the ability to buy Great Engineers with :c5faith:. Perhaps this could be moved to a different tree?
 
Tradition is already a tremendous policy tree without the ability to buy Great Engineers with :c5faith:. Perhaps this could be moved to a different tree?

Excellent idea. Plus, Order gives GE perks and is the natural extension of Liberty, so that would make sense. As well, a Liberty empire needs GE's more, as it has lower production than a Tradition empire.
 
Excellent idea. Plus, Order gives GE perks and is the natural extension of Liberty, so that would make sense. As well, a Liberty empire needs GE's more, as it has lower production than a Tradition empire.

Tradition is supposed to be the tall, wonder heavy policies though. I would think GE make perfect sense there. Anyways, liberty to order hardly seems like a natural progression to me, at least in terms of name.
 
One idea to improve Piety would be to add some :c5culture: As it is right now, Piety is the only early social policy tree which does not offer any bonus :c5culture:. This makes social policies take longer in addition to having generally weaker social policies than the other tree options.

My recommendation would be to give +1 :c5culture: to Shrines and Temples. Perhaps this could be added to the 1st tier policy which gives +1 :c5faith: to Shrines and Temples.

This small tweak would help to balance Piety.

Agreed.

Also, another idea to buff liberty: +25% Great Person production along with free great person. Liberty lacks a long term finisher bonus.
 
Tradition is supposed to be the tall, wonder heavy policies though. I would think GE make perfect sense there. Anyways, liberty to order hardly seems like a natural progression to me, at least in terms of name.

Well in the terms that liberty is the SP path for wide empires and Order is the ideology for wide empires it is the natural progression. Also wide empires will have low production cities for the most part, the only way they can get any wonders is with GEs. Tall empires will have mad production so they can get wonders regardless.
 
Commerce doesn't really need a buff. Protectionism provides a nice boost in :), land trade routes become a bit more effective and the finisher makes trading posts and GM's twice as effective in trade missions.

You build GMs? By the time you get this finisher you should be in modern era at least, when the money from GMs are basically useless. Ditto the gold from land routes - it's minuscule
 
In order to make liberty competitive and to begin making wide as viable as tall, liberty must negate the 5% science penalty for new cities somehow.
 
One idea to improve Piety would be to add some :c5culture: As it is right now, Piety is the only early social policy tree which does not offer any bonus :c5culture:. This makes social policies take longer in addition to having generally weaker social policies than the other tree options.

My recommendation would be to give +1 :c5culture: to Shrines and Temples. Perhaps this could be added to the 1st tier policy which gives +1 :c5faith: to Shrines and Temples.

This small tweak would help to balance Piety.

+1 culture from shrines and temples is already a pantheon (Ancestor Worship). Doesn't necessarily mean they can't change it, of course.

Personally, considering how weak Piety is, I wouldn't mind making the opener (where the culture is SUPPOSED to be as per the other three Ancient trees) extremely strong in certain situations (IE where the terrain makes you say "oh god I need a religion"). I'd make it +1 culture from anything that generates faith (shrines, temples, wonders, pantheon-relevant tiles) super strong in the right situations. This would make Piety a monster culture pick where Goddess of Festivals or Religious Idols would be strong pantheons.
 
The first three SP trees should offer free building finishers.

Keep TRADITION with the 4 free aqueducts
Have LIBERTY give 4 free GOLD-PRODUCING buildings (aka markets or banks depending on what each city already has))
Have HONOR give 4 free MILITARY buildings (aka barracks or armory depending on what each city already has)
 
The first three SP trees should offer free building finishers.

Keep TRADITION with the 4 free aqueducts
Have LIBERTY give 4 free GOLD-PRODUCING buildings (aka markets or banks depending on what each city already has))
Have HONOR give 4 free MILITARY buildings (aka barracks or armory depending on what each city already has)

I like this idea
 
I would suggest not to weaken Tradition, but to strengthen Liberty and Honor.

In liberty the free setller should be available right after the opener as it was in vanilla.

? I kind of think Liberty is not that good right now.
And Honor is even worse.

Give Honor back its happiness from walls/catles/etc. it will be fine then
 
Actually, Tradition has 4 free aqueducts and 4 free monuments/amphitheaters. One of the many reasons why it's so powerful.

This is actually what got me thinking along the same lines as giving each of the starting trees giving free buildings. Part of the problem is that Tradition gives you free Monuments and Aqueducts (both required buildings for any strategy), while Liberty gives you a free worker and free settler. That's a tremendous number of hammers for free early in the game where there's the most impact. That means you can spend your time building other key units/buildings without having to worry about those (usually spending the hammers you save on a Granary).

It would make sense for the Honor opener to give free Barracks. It lets you get out your first few units with upgrades before other civs can build them. Just the slight edge for early game combat you need, without being able to straight steamroll.

Piety should give free Shrines as an opener. This essentially doesn't do anything but give you 8 turns of :c5faith: while you hardbuild a Monument, rather than 8 turns of :c5culture: while you hard build a Shrine (if you pick Tradition). This is weak enough such that anyone who starts in a good spot to grab an early religion (Natural wonder or good :c5faith: Pantheon location) can still get one without going Piety, but civs who do go Piety will get first pick of the Pantheon beliefs (as they should). I also like the idea of adding +1 :c5culture: to the policy that gives +1 :c5faith:, to offset the :c5culture: delay. Since you get the Shrine so much earlier, and are likely to get a Pantheon much sooner, it may even make sense with that opener change to give the first policy simply +1 :c5culture: per Shrine/Temple and drop the extra :c5faith: all together. Of course, which way to go would have to come out of testing both.

I think that's a fairly reasonable way to get Piety closer to Tradition/Liberty, but I don't think it would be enough for Honor. Some sort of gold/turn or happiness bonus would also need to go into Honor, I think, to offset the early unhappiness from conquering and the gold cost of having an early army. Not sure, though.
 
I agree with OP, I find liberty should be the standard, and would lower tradition a bit, an rise honor a lot to try to balance them. Piety should give some extra bonuses, some culture and happiness would be nice. Piety is generally underrated, the real power of piety is getting a very strong religion, or enabling a religion when otherwise you would not have chances. Religion is quite balanced in the way you don't feel pressed to make a religion in any game in order to have chances, but definitively gives you an edge and extreme customization to what to improve in your empire. There are still some always-weak beliefs out there, and they damage ceremonial burial too much, a middle ground 2 happiness from each 3 converted cities (giving happiness from the first and third in each multiple), would be more fitting.

The great ingeneer makes more sense in liberty. Ingeneer = production, even we all use them for wonder more than anything, but if something liberty has over others, is a production boost.

Free buildings for 4 cities seem too much, and is a great part of the reason tradition is so powerful, with a four city setup you can go any type of victory, stay tall or go wide later, etc. The other is that the policies have great placement on order, and every benefit can be fully profitable in time. To rip it off:

- The starter is arguably the best. 3 solid culture helps much more than one per city, there's a point in the game that the culture from starting branches in minuscule, but 3 culture on capital plus plus sixtine, hermitage, broadcast fits better even then. Then you have the extra border expansion, with will along with the 3 culture, bordering absurdeness. You save LOTS of gold not buying land. Way down the best starter, even all others are pretty solid, tradition gets here the upper hand.

- Early monuments for free means LOTS of turns saved in such a critical stage, has the felibility to use that later for opera houses or any culture building, making tradition a great branch to mix with piety or honor. Free monuments plus the previous border growth makes a great synergy. 4 saves GPT at any time is great with the gold debuff, specially on early stages.

- Oligarchy being the worst policy, is quite powerful, not only for the free garrisons but the 50% extra power with them makes every city a stronghold just with walls. Taking cities with oligarchy and garrison takes a lot of time, and you won't use melee ever in such cities.

- 15% production for wonders is great and in great position. If you go wonderspam, is usually ready by the time you start with it, if you decide so, but if not, is a permanent bonus through the game. The you have extra happiness per 10 citizens, that will kick on the middle game and again in late game, and much faster on the capital, mena a lot of happiness if its not for short use.

- +2 growth in capital,and 10% from Landed Elite, being science the most important thing on the game, and growth directly tied with science, and 95% chances you capital will bi the higher city anyways is pretty solid too.

- +1 gold and -1 happiness each two citizens will go to more as the game advances, synergize with the capital growth boost and the finisher, making it a pretty solid policiy.

- The finisher also borders absurdeness, 15% to EVERY city, and 4 free aqueducts is quite strong (with the 4 GPT that is always noticeable), and not only that you get ingeneers for faith purchases later, is just crazy.

I would not debuff tradition severely, but just a bit here and there. Limiting free buildings and growth to 3 cities would make more sense, 4 cities is in the middle of tall and wide, at least in standard. Oligarchy 50% bonus is too much, seriously. I would lower it to 25-30%, good enough, you have the belief to boost it further and the freedom tenet, witch are way inferior risht now BTW. Lastly move the border growth out of starting branch, so you don't benefit for it so early and is not so massive, also would keep people out getting just the tradition starter because is so damn good. Maybe on Landed elite or Oligarchy, not sure.

Faith Ingeneer would fit better to Liberty, so move it to the lib finisher, and I would give also a +1 science on the finishier, to mitigate science penalty per city just a bit. Maybe a 3-5% extra unhapiness from citizens cut, to fit the lower happiness overall in BNW. Now is damn hard to get 6 cities up an running in standard in a reasonable time so it starts to kick on the middle game, and for standard 5-6 cities with liberty are key, if not just go tradition (I 95% pick tradition in Immortal/Deity just because of that and the free buildings to 4 cities, and I like more a wide style).

With Piety, +1 culture from shrines and temples would make you go through the branch faster, and maybe a +3 happiness once you get the great temple built to get some happiness boost. This way culture helps in wide style, and happiness only for a puntual boost, you have more flexibility on the religion benefits this way.

Honor need free units or early bonus production, to close the gap a little, free units to have an actual army, stack the garrison bonuses to walls intead, and some extra happiness from HE, strategic resources, forge/stables, anything that is tied to a militar way (not from all of those buildings, of course).

Consulates is overpowered with pledge to protect, I think lowering it from 20 to 15 should be enough. I wonder why firaxis ignore this abusable technique, if shouts for a change. I miss the faster decrease once you finish patronage, +1 gold from city states and moved great people as finisher... seriously??

Commerce is mostly fine, starter, purchase discounts plus science and the finisher are rather powerful, but the +2 gold from land routes and the 25% faster great merchants are a joke.

Exploration is nice but mixing culture needs (opener and finisher) with sea-based bonuses is horrible. The finisher should be a second policy so you don't have to plow on a situational tree just for extra artifacts.

Secularism is overpowered, I think all the other bonuses are right, the problem here is science by itself if too good. I would switch it with scientific revolution, or put sovereignty first, then revolution, last secularism. Only giving +1 science from specialists would work too.

Tenets I don't have a strong opinion on them, I find always a few very useful in each tree for designed victories, and are a clear upgrade on normal policies, I don't see a clear winner as you can tailor your victory goals with the tenets easily.

Lastly I would add some original policies tied to what the branches are for, and maybe some science boost in exploration, commerce has its pick on science and asthetics shouldn't, as science is oposed to culture.

Wow, I prolongued my monologue too far, sorry for the hard read.
 
If anything needs a buff its piety. The bonuses should be valuable whether or not you have a religion.

I think the biggest problem with Piety is that almost none of the bonuses are immediate...you have to wait quite awhile before they start paying off. So while the guy who picked Tradition is immediately getting faster population growth, wonder production, etc. the guy who picked Piety is waiting for a second religion to spread to his cities (to nab the extra Pantheon bonus) or to have extra Great Prophets to plant or to take advantage of a Reformation belief that isn't useful until the Renaissance or later.

I say buff the other trees and make them viable alternatives instead of nerfing Tradition.
 
Unsurprisingly, as per the logic in your Honor thread, I strongly disagree with this. Your perception (and the perception of many others, as demonstrated by the posts here) is faulty because you're trying to balance to acommodate for the game's broken AI. Tradition is decidedly a small-empire tree (yes, four cities is a tiny empire) and is the worst choice you can make if you plan for expansion or conquest.
 
If Liberty is supposed to encourage a wider empire, why does it not provide extra trade routes and/or increase the range of those trade routes? Or perhaps it could buff internal trade routes in some other way.
 
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