.

[nzcamel]

Do people really think Egypt looks weak? They have probably the best wonder bonus in the game – where other civs are limited by eras, hers lasts from start to finish and is only limited by the river condition – and you want to be settling rivers anyway, as they're the most key game feature for early city growth. The district bonus is also really nice, and can save Egypt a ton of hammers on early development.

I don't think the floodplain bonus should be underrated either. In past games, they've been some of the strongest tiles in the game, often only limited in what you can build on them. Given Egypt's bonus, it looks like flood plains construction will be limited again – except for Egypt, who can make the most of the best tiles in the game for early pop growth.

I'm a little skeptical of Brazil. I know they look strong, but it all depends on rainforest. Will Brazil's ability boost an already good tile, or salvage a weak tile that civs would otherwise chop down? Based on past games, I would guess the latter, but we won't know until the game is out.

This!!! ^^^^

 

[Ornen]

Sumeria's Ziggurat is strong, but also one of the most terrain limited – can only be built on non-hill tiles next to a river. Those are also going to be your prime farm tiles, and I imagine Sumeria players will have to strike a delicate balance between raw tech/culture and growth, which is the game's main key to development and some of the bigger science boosts.

 

[Seek]

Sumeria's Ziggurat is strong, but also one of the most terrain limited – can only be built on non-hill tiles next to a river. Those are also going to be your prime farm tiles, and I imagine Sumeria players will have to strike a delicate balance between raw tech/culture and growth, which is the game's main key to development and some of the bigger science boosts.

It's too early to tell how strong the ziggurat is, we don't know how much science/culture it provides (and its only requirement is flat land, river gives the culture). Also there appears to be no freshwater boosts to farms this go round.

 

[joncnunn]

Sumeria's Ziggurat is strong, but also one of the most terrain limited – can only be built on non-hill tiles next to a river. Those are also going to be your prime farm tiles, and I imagine Sumeria players will have to strike a delicate balance between raw tech/culture and growth, which is the game's main key to development and some of the bigger science boosts.

It can be built away from the river; but only gets a science boost unless next to one.

It's too early to tell how strong the ziggurat is, we don't know how much science/culture it provides (and its only requirement is flat land, river gives the culture). Also there appears to be no freshwater boosts to farms this go round.

Indeed, without freshwater boosts; Sumeria simply builds farms away from the river to save the river tiles for Ziggurats in order to get the cultural portion of the bonus.

 

[Ornen]

It's too early to tell how strong the ziggurat is, we don't know how much science/culture it provides (and its only requirement is flat land, river gives the culture). Also there appears to be no freshwater boosts to farms this go round.

In any case, I don't think it'll be the gamebreaking bonus a lot of people here expect it to be.

 

[Seek]

In any case, I don't think it'll be the gamebreaking bonus a lot of people here expect it to be.

Agreed, I'm expecting it to just be 1s/1c.

I'd rate Sumeria a tier 2 or 3 civ at this point.

 

[spfun]

The problem with the Ziggurat comparatively to Brazil's adjacency bonus is the tiles need to be worked to give the effect, Brazil can pop down a +6 campus and theater district and still work 6 high yield tiles while Sumeria can only work 3 high yield tiles + 3 ziggurats. ( assuming its +2/2 ) Brazil's rainforest bias, if its anything like Civ 5 it will be a large area. UU battleship isn't a big deal but the GP boost is nice to have, imagine also building the Oracle! Will start next to Kongo a lot though with its UU could cause Brazil some problems. Brazil's UD is a nice one as it won't count towards the district cap and maybe hard to build otherwise with all the other districts to build.

Kongo is one of my favorites so far. I like tall productive empires. Kongo has a useful early UU and UD, and a great relic bonus and can ignore religion and still profit from it, all around great civ for my playstyle of going Tall for Culture/Science victories.

 

[nzcamel]

Kongo look pretty damn good.

 

[bite]

I think it is still Rome, but Summer's barbarian camp perk might just push it over the edge

 

[stealth_nsk]

An interesting note for this thread. For civilizations we consider strong, we know how nearly all of their abilities work. For civilization we consider weak, like America or England, we don't know how significant parts of their uniques perform. I expect some surprises here.

 

[Ovarwa]

So much is situational.

America? Founding Fathers might be great. But if legacy bonuses cap out too soon or if even a doubled legacy bonus isn't all that great, then meh. +5 on the home continent might convince the Aztecs to bother someone else first, but otherwise seems meh.

Anything with a unique improvement? If these are not significantly better than farms or mines, or if they come too late in the game, there are better ways to get these benefits. Ziggurats, Sphinxes and Great Walls compete with other good improvements. Stepwells come late. Etc. All require food, housing and amenities to leverage. So these are not automatically awesome, or even good.

China? Using builders to rush early wonders sounds great! Except that such wonders come at the expense of other builds, such as defending against the Aztecs or barbarians, improvements, settlers and districts. Worse, there aren't all that many early wonders; this ability probably boils down to "China can get one extra wonder." Which is not bad! Hardly OP. OTOH, the Eureka/Inspiration bonus seems very good: If China misses half of these and gets half of these, that's a 7% bonus to civic and tech advancement.

Conversely, the Aztec builder ability for districts seems to have gotten lost amidst all the other Aztec goodies, the bonus lasts all game, and every Aztec city is going to have a few districts. Taking civics for +30% production on builders and +2 charges per builder better than halves district costs when using builders for this, though an Aztec player might have other plans for his civics. Between extra amenities, bonuses to combat strength, and using builders for districts, the Aztecs have a complete toolkit to last them the entire game.

No civ can be considered OP if it cannot weather an early onslaught by nearby civs with early game military advantages. A civ that folds in the face of three Eagle Warriors or War Carts is hardly a threat!

Brazil? Rainforests are great, but will probably apply to very few cities, perhaps only one.

Kongo? If their fake neighborhoods can only be built amidst the trees, many city locations become very difficult to use, because there are no trees.

England? Possibly the realization that best corresponds to history. Not much before the dawn of the Industrial era, but if they survive that long, they have the perfect toolkit to sweep the world... but this advantage will erode. Hard to say if this tradeoff is OP or maybe UP. Of course, if London starts near another continent on the same landmass, an early settler build or three also provide extra units. Hard to say no to that.

Egypt? Iteru seems solid but not awesome; when it comes to building wonders, Egypt is never better than second best until the modern era. Their chariots are not special for an early UU, though having an early UU is downright useful. Trade route bonuses? Hard to say just yet.

Germany? Probably very good. An extra military policy is great, a unique industrial district comes late but is also great, and an extra district also great. The bonus against city-states, and the u-boat seem lackluster, but who cares?

Scythians? They get bonuses versus wounded units, which means they almost always get bonuses, because it usually takes more than one attack to kill something, so their hordes of light cavalry, available throughout the game, produced at 25% cost (2 for 1, civic for +100% production) are likely to be even more effective than expected... which is saying something. With that kind of focused advantage, I expect them to be very scary in the hands of a competent player, or the preferred first target of an early rush. Which? Hard to say, because we don't yet understand pacing. But I suspect that it will be difficult to exist on the same landmass as a fully armed and operational Scythia.

France? Bonus for wonders during the entire midgame (or midgame and endgame, for games that never make it to modern times) seems very good: One civ4 player here sigged that 10 Axemen is the best early wonder, and it may be that sinking early production into a risky wonder instead of settlers, builders, units and maybe a district or two might not be so great. An extra, early spy? Depends on how good spies are. UU? Far less good than Redcoats, unless London is on your continent .

India? Depends greatly on whether opponents spread religion to you, and on whether you can stay at peace. Their UU seems great for the front line, with ranged units in the rear also benefiting from the decrease to enemy strength.

Sumeria? Not so happy when the barbarian camps are gone. Not so happy once the War Cart becomes obsolete. Awesome if the advantage gained is sufficient. OP or UP? We won't know for a while.

Japan? Hard to say. Half-price on a few districts combined with extra adjacency bonuses from districts seems good, but the effect might be too subtle to matter. Coastal bonuses? I suspect a skilled human player will make these shine, on some maps. Overall, who knows?

Greece seems at worst solid and at best awesome. Wildcard policy? Gotta be great. Early unique district? Probably great. Bonuses from city-state suzerainty? Can't be too bad and maybe fantastic. Hoplites seem very good, but there are many early units: Some come earlier and some seem more powerful.

Rome might be OP but also might be UP. If legions are too good, Rome becomes a great target for early extinction. But of course the AI won't be smart enough for that! The extra monument seems really good: In a sense, Rome has a faster start than Sumeria. (So do the Aztecs, whose starting Warrior is an Eagle. Eagles > vultures? ) All roads lead to Rome? Might be great, might be meh.

Then there's Spain: Very scary once they have a religion. Unless they have to sacrifice too much to get one, or are wiped out before they can capitalize on that advantage.

Etc.

It may be that the entire conversation of OP vs UP is meaningless: Against the AI, each civilization provides a unique advantage that the AI doesn't know how to compensate for, allowing a human player to dance around drooling AI civilizations. Against humans, the only truly important advantages are those that allow survival past the early game.

Or maybe not! We'll see.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[stealth_nsk]

Don't forget the changes made to civs. We've seen Sumers having their LUA and UI changed between recording FL video and showing it. We haven't heard about America, England, China or Egypt since June build. How much things changed for them?

 

[dturtle1]

In regards to The museum bonus i was under the impression that it got double the slots and allows two archaeologist's to work at the same time. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. You get twice the storage or twice the max cap on the yield and you can accrue it twice as quick. Is it not confirmed or am i missing something ?

America is issues are that most of its stuff comes late. I mean the p-51 is cool and all but its use is highly dependant on the A.I's. I have only played up to Emperor but i can't remember ever getting into an actual air war, mostly it is me just bombing the heck out of their cities

I seem to remember the Film studio giving a 50% boost tourism, but cant seem to find it. UB's could be considered the weakest of the infrastructure types and it has only 2 Era's of effectiveness....it better be damn strong. I mean how do you compare 1 Film Studio per City that has only 2 Era's of use compared 3-4 Ziggurats each providing yields per cIty from the start of the game ?
The Additional Appeal with every City with a National park is pretty cool as it affects both tourism and Housing, ( on a side note The Eiffel tower maybe borderline broken on wide Civs )


If I get Brazil as a neighbour you know i am gonna burn at least 1 builder purely to chop out His Rainforests before they get culture claimed

Egypt is Strong, Mediterranean's Bride will be borderline broken on maps that support Multi Civ Trade, every Man and his Dog will want to trade with her. Wonder Bonus that lasts the whole game plus a relatively powerful UI that is even better with Wonders = Strong and Flexible. It also gives faster uptime on all Districts as well, So quicker Trade routes because you want to build commerce districts on a river anyway. Throw in a early ranged UU and you a golden

 

[nzcamel]

In regards to The museum bonus i was under the impression that it got double the slots and allows two archaeologist's to work at the same time. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. You get twice the storage or twice the max cap on the yield and you can accrue it twice as quick. Is it not confirmed or am i missing something ?

I don't think you've missed a thing. As someone who enjoyed racking up the tourism points in V, I think it'll be very good for the Culture Victory. But yeah, still not the greatest Civ Ability when compared to most.

America is issues are that most of its stuff comes late. I mean the p-51 is cool and all but its use is highly dependant on the A.I's. I have only played up to Emperor but i can't remember ever getting into an actual air war, mostly it is me just bombing the heck out of their cities

I seem to remember the Film studio giving a 50% boost tourism, but cant seem to find it. UB's could be considered the weakest of the infrastructure types and it has only 2 Era's of effectiveness....it better be damn strong. I mean how do you compare 1 Film Studio per City that has only 2 Era's of use compared 3-4 Ziggurats each providing yields per cIty from the start of the game ?
The Additional Appeal with every City with a National park is pretty cool as it affects both tourism and Housing, ( on a side note The Eiffel tower maybe borderline broken on wide Civs )

I rank America's UU and UI last out of those revealed so far. Hopefully they're hugely powerful to make up for their late appearances; but it doesn't sound like quite enough...

If I get Brazil as a neighbour you know i am gonna burn at least 1 builder purely to chop out His Rainforests before they get culture claimed

You may even be able to do that early even if they're claimed when Pedro can't enforce his borders...?

Egypt is Strong, Mediterranean's Bride will be borderline broken on maps that support Multi Civ Trade, every Man and his Dog will want to trade with her. Wonder Bonus that lasts the whole game plus a relatively powerful UI that is even better with Wonders = Strong and Flexible. It also gives faster uptime on all Districts as well, So quicker Trade routes because you want to build commerce districts on a river anyway. Throw in a early ranged UU and you a golden

Yeah, Cleo is kick ass. She's in my top three at the mo, tied for second with Gandhi; both behind Trajan.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

An interesting note for this thread. For civilizations we consider strong, we know how nearly all of their abilities work. For civilization we consider weak, like America or England, we don't know how significant parts of their uniques perform. I expect some surprises here.

I agree.

In regards to The museum bonus i was under the impression that it got double the slots and allows two archaeologist's to work at the same time. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. You get twice the storage or twice the max cap on the yield and you can accrue it twice as quick. Is it not confirmed or am i missing something ?

We do not know how theming bonus work. 6 slots may allow for a theming bonus that is a whole league beyond what 3 slots can do.

I have used this so many times but let say that each great work of art provide an adjancency bonus of +1 to all other great works. If you got 6 great works England can get a theming bonus of 6*5 = 30 vs normal 6*2 = 12. As you can see England is vastly ahead and that is just one advantage of its UA.

I rank America's UU and UI last out of those revealed so far. Hopefully they're hugely powerful to make up for their late appearances; but it doesn't sound like quite enough...

Powerful, no they are not powerful, they are really powerful. A fighter that counters fighter (thats like swords counters swords), uber tourism building, bonuses to everything due to legacy bonus and also super parks. What do most other civs get here, maybe nothing

America is basically Sumeria reversed.

UB's could be considered the weakest of the infrastructure types

Based on what? Compared to UD, UB is pure raw power while UD is more about finess. Compared to UI, UB do not need any citizen investment, it is like having a super citizen that do not need housing, food and do the work of several normal citizens.

No civ can be considered OP if it cannot weather an early onslaught by nearby civs with early game military advantages. A civ that folds in the face of three Eagle Warriors or War Carts is hardly a threat!

Civilization is a global game. It is not always so you can reach all civs with early game units and after your unit is gone and other civs advantages start come online you may be in deep trouble. Like what if France go super culture, America survives to the late game while Spain go around converting everyone such scenario could be very tricky to pull out a win.

 

[IBrutal lLegend]

I put Germany a lot higher now that I learned that Unique districts do not require any population, coupled with free imperial cities Germany gets an extra 2 districts compared to most other civs

 

[Danzo_87]

I put Germany a lot higher now that I learned that Unique districts do not require any population, coupled with free imperial cities Germany gets an extra 2 districts compared to most other civs

just like Greece is versatile on government choice, Germany counters by their engineering precision on the extra districts, plus the Hansa to provide the production boost towards all kind of production, they will be one of the powerhouse imo

 

[Seek]

Maybe it's the "newness factor", but Arabia is looking like a tier 1 civ, they're the new Babylon. Their Univerities come on line a full era before anyone else's, plus they get additional science on their (guaranteed) religious building!

 

[Siptah]

Maybe it's the "newness factor", but Arabia is looking like a tier 1 civ, they're the new Babylon. Their Univerities come on line a full era before anyone else's, plus they get additional science on their (guaranteed) religious building!

Agreed. But it might not be as Op as Babylon, because it kicks in later. Still early, but later. But maybe that's how it has to work for medieval civs.
Early civs need a start that puts them a bit ahead of everyone else.
Late civs need a really powerful late game to overtake the leading civs from behind.
Mid game civs need an insane mid game to compensate a worse start than early civs and to compensate that no more new bonuses are kicking in in the late game. If you go by that, France bonus should be far better.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Science is not as important in civ VI as it was in civ V.

France is really strong in culture. Culture is not only about winning the best defence against culture is culture so France who get double tourism is insanly dangerous. If it just grab a few wonders (which also keep them from other civs) it can win a culture victory just like that.

It is probably the most underrated civ because people think to much in Civ V terms and also part of the mechanics this civ take advantage of is not yet known.

In the end the only thing that matter are winning not how you reached the win.