.

[agonistes]

I think it depends on how quickly a victory can be achieved, but Germany gets my vote, and will probably be the Civ I play as first.

I am getting a feeling that Rome may be pretty strong.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think it depends on how quickly a victory can be achieved

Strength should not be how quick but how reliable you can win. A slow civ that win 100% of the time is stronger then a quick civ that win 99% of the time.

I am getting a feeling that Rome may be pretty strong.

Rome get legionary and bath, one for conquest and one for supporting large cities.

 

[Acken]

Not if winning quickly is more important to you.

It doesnt matter that much anyway because the correlation between probability of winning and speed is veryhigh in the series. The exception being a luck based civ like spain civ5.

Which also mean that the length of the game will have a strong effect on who is reliable or not. Hell... the length of a game always had strong ramifications on balance.

 

[dturtle1]

Well I would call half price a BIG difference, its having double the number of those districts.....

I would disagree there. Half the production time isn't double the number of those districts, you only get one per city. Rather it makes it quicker to bring that district online, with the greater overall benefits this provides.

In regards to Germany VS England. Extra Military Slot is powerful, but so is a Free melee unit every time you settle on a foreign continent. Which takes effect from the beginning. Imagine rolling a start position that is next to a continent border. A free Military unit every time you build a settler is pretty cool.
The extra district slot is pretty cool but you cant use this in your argument whilst neglecting the England equivalent of the British museum, just because you dont know exactly how it works. Considering the expanded archealogy mechanics it could well be very powerful.

Let us assume that Seadog = Uboat and the only other difference is Hansa VS Naval Dockyard. Because these are both unique districts that replace a standard one, you have to compare the bonuses that are greater than the standard ones. +1 trade routes is not a bonus. The +2gold(assuming on a different Continent), +1 movement, + 1 Admiral GP is. This compares with Major adjacency Bonus next to a commerce district of the Hansa. According to the writings of Arioch, The Hansa gets a standard adjacency bonus to Resources compared to the standard adjacency bonus next to Mines and Quarries. This is a little hard to compare as what consitutes a resource in this case. Every Type(luxury, strategic, bonus) sounds much stronger than Mines and quarries, assuming even that mines only require a hill. Although the Hansa is definitely really strong the royal Dockyard could be strong too, especially on maps that support naval warfare.

All in all i would be loathe to call either one UP compared to the other. The only real strength in Germany is its ease of use compared to England, you dont have to worry about coastal(near) cities to use its unique district and its UA doesnt require a particular strategy to really benefit. Compared this to England pretty much requiring expansion. There are a lot of Military Policies that dont necessarily require a warmonger's game. Everyone needs some level military and therefore the extra military slot will always be useful, especially in the early game. However the snowball effect of England is real. Rapid expansion already has its own rewards, getting rewarded just for doing it make it incredibly powerful. The ability to solely concentrate on popping out settlers, knowing full well that your base military needs( 1 melee unit per city is pretty good base defence )grow with you without you having to do anything is amazing in itself.

 

[Martinus]

but so is a Free melee unit every time you settle on a foreign continent. Which takes effect from the beginning. Imagine rolling a start position that is next to a continent border. A free Military unit every time you build a settler is pretty cool.

It is highly unlikely you will roll a start that's at the intersection of three continents, though.

I mean, in an average game with 8 civilizations, that's 3 free military units during the entire game, tops. This is hardly overpowering, and you have to likely go far to get the last 1 or 2. And remember the rising cost of settlers, making a ICS much less viable.

Meanwhile, imagine Germany settling these extra 3 cities much faster (since they can all be close to the capital) and set up an extra district in each.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It is highly unlikely you will roll a start that's at the intersection of three continents, though.

I mean, in an average game with 8 civilizations, that's 3 free military units during the entire game, tops. This is hardly overpowering, and you have to likely go far to get the last 1 or 2. And remember the rising cost of settlers, making a ICS much less viable.

The way it's stated you get 1 unit for each city, not for each continent. So if you settle 5 cities on the same continent which is not your home, you get 5 units.

It's a subject of change, though.

 

[Gangrin]

Nah, Britain clearly is the underdog here. Hansa is better than Royal dockyard simply because you can build it anywhere, even in a truly landlocked city and production is more valuable than money. Free military units on city founding on other continents - come on guys, let's be realists. How many of them will you be able to cram into other players' turf? Two? Three? Let's get bonkers - five. Five free units. After researching a mid-game tech of ocean-going, actually finding the continent, going there and then trying to hold onto these fresh cities with one-three units against full strength of the native civs while your main forces are on the other side of the planet. Good freaking luck . Even if you play Pangea, you place your bets on RNG being kind to you (just like Spain in CiV), and we all know how it plays out usually. While German free military policy working for you all game long and extra districts are, as you guessed it, FREE EXTRA DISTRICTS. The one thing that maybe saves the day for poor Albion is it's museum and archeologists. But again, we don't know anything about them, so...

 

[dturtle1]

A) The way it is written all cities founded on continents other than your home continent get the free melee unit. 10 cities theoretically means 9 free units. However this does not tell the full story. The important part is the opportunity cost you save by not having to build that unit yourself. You will require military units to keep your borders secure, especially considering cities do not defend themselves implicitly anymore. A Civilisation that has 10 cities will need at 10 units. England gets them for free.

B) The requirement for foreign continents in minor at best. When you consider the 1st social policy to boost requires finding a foreign continent i assure you there will be plenty of foreign city location to settle. Hell, you could go a large city on your own continent followed by tightly packed cities along the other continents border,so really space isnt such an issue at all.

C) The Hansa primary bonus compared to the district it replaces is the Major adjacency when situated next to a Economic District, or 1 adjacency Bonus as you can only have 1 commercial district. On top of this you are possibly plopping an commercial district in a non optimal area purely to boost your Hansa, or vice versa. The requirement to have your Hansa next to a commercial district cuts both ways. On top of this the Royal Dockyard works right out of the gate whereas the Hansa requires a Commercial district(at full production cost) to get its benefit. This either forces you to wait until you build a Commerce district or to pre-plan your commerce district first requiring you to at minimum tech into Currency before Apprenticeship. Lets not vilify the Royal Dockyards cons(requiring near coast) without also taking into consideration the Hansa's cons.

D) Again, the German bonus of an extra district cannot be compared to England equivalent of the British museum. You cannot say that Germany's bonus is better because you just dont know. Is one extra district really going to be that much more powerful than a unique building, especially when that unique building references a pretty unique mechanic(archaeology). Considering the relics we have seen are quite powerful in themselves i wouldn't be surprised if a unique building devoted to this mechanic also being powerful.

Germany is more flexible than England but lets not underestimate the sheer potential power of Englands bonuses.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Nah, Britain clearly is the underdog here.

Let's compare 2 military civs, England and Germany.

Both have sea-based UU. Without knowing exact stats we can't say which is better, let's consider them equal.

England has additional UU.

England has combat bonus on foreign continents, which on standard map size means 75% of the map (more if you're fighting generally offensive wars). Germany has combat bonus vs. city-state units, which could be useful against city-states allied with other civs or in early fights vs. city-states, but I doubt it will be more than 10% of the units you face.

Hansa gives bonus production, while England Harbor gives bonus gold (in some situations), bonus movement for ships and great admiral points. Depending on the role of the Navy, the Royal Navy could have different value, but overall Hansa looks a bit better.

Germany could have 1 more district, which is good. England has unique Museum, which is also good. Nearly impossible to compare.

So, based on this I can't tell the obvious leader. Germany looks a bit more geared towards conquest victory, while England is a bit more universal with its Museum and gold bonuses.

 

[Gangrin]

A) The way it is written all cities founded on continents other than your home continent get the free melee unit. 10 cities theoretically means 9 free units. However this does not tell the full story. The important part is the opportunity cost you save by not having to build that unit yourself. You will require military units to keep your borders secure, especially considering cities do not defend themselves implicitly anymore. A Civilisation that has 10 cities will need at 10 units. England gets them for free.

B) The requirement for foreign continents in minor at best. When you consider the 1st social policy to boost requires finding a foreign continent i assure you there will be plenty of foreign city location to settle. Hell, you could go a large city on your own continent followed by tightly packed cities along the other continents border,so really space isnt such an issue at all.

C) The Hansa primary bonus compared to the district it replaces is the Major adjacency when situated next to a Economic District, or 1 adjacency Bonus as you can only have 1 commercial district. On top of this you are possibly plopping an commercial district in a non optimal area purely to boost your Hansa, or vice versa. The requirement to have your Hansa next to a commercial district cuts both ways. On top of this the Royal Dockyard works right out of the gate whereas the Hansa requires a Commercial district(at full production cost) to get its benefit. This either forces you to wait until you build a Commerce district or to pre-plan your commerce district first requiring you to at minimum tech into Currency before Apprenticeship. Lets not vilify the Royal Dockyards cons(requiring near coast) without also taking into consideration the Hansa's cons.

D) Again, the German bonus of an extra district cannot be compared to England equivalent of the British museum. You cannot say that Germany's bonus is better because you just dont know. Is one extra district really going to be that much more powerful than a unique building, especially when that unique building references a pretty unique mechanic(archaeology). Considering the relics we have seen are quite powerful in themselves i wouldn't be surprised if a unique building devoted to this mechanic also being powerful.

Germany is more flexible than England but lets not underestimate the sheer potential power of Englands bonuses.

A) I highly doubt the ability to spam 10 cities on other continents. Also, you said it yourself, you need units to defend your city. One unit cannot defend against even semi-serious attack.
B) "Assure you"? On what basis? Remember, not all maps are Pangea, and you very well can be locked on a single continent until sailing or even CiV astronomy-equivalent
C) Are you forgetting the fact that Hansa gets bonus prod for any adjacent resource(read it again: ANY resource, wheat, deer, marble, whatever)? You are not forced to place it near com hub at all
D) We don't know, sure. That's why i said it's possible it is Britain's saving grace

England has combat bonus on foreign continents

Not England, only Redcoat

 

[Matthew.]

These comparisons keep leaving out Germany's free military card. Further increasing Germany flexibility, and easily on par with some of England's bonuses. For example -1 gold maintenance on all military units is easily as good as an extra free unit once and a while for cities on other continents.

 

[dturtle1]

A) I highly doubt the ability to spam 10 cities on other continents. Also, you said it yourself, you need units to defend your city. One unit cannot defend against even semi-serious attack.
B) "Assure you"? On what basis? Remember, not all maps are Pangea, and you very well can be locked on a single continent until sailing or even CiV astronomy-equivalent
C) Are you forgetting the fact that Hansa gets bonus prod for any adjacent resource(read it again: ANY resource, wheat, deer, marble, whatever)? You are not forced to place it near com hub at all
D) We don't know, sure. That's why i said it's possible it is Britain's saving grace

The point was not the number of free units, it is the fact you do not have to build them or wait for them to be built when you first settle. Oppurtunity cost is important. One civ might Settle a city and build a unit to defend against the barbarians. England on the other hand doesn't have to and is free to build anything else. Nothing is truer in Civilisation than the concept that something now is > something x number of turns down the track. I did not forget about the Hansa bonus to resources. The standard industrial site gets the same adjacency bonus when adjacent to mines and quarries. I did reference this in a previous post. Sure you can choose not build your Hansa next to commercial district but you are giving up the Major Adjacency bonus. Either way, unless you luck out beautifully you will most likely have to choose between maximising your Hansa Bonus, or maximising your Commercial district bonus.

I am basing by assumption on the fact the first Civil tech(one of) has a inspiration that requires you to find a foreign Continent. It stands to reason, considering the relative ease of acquiring inspirations that this would be relatively straight forward. Different map conditions will of course affect this but requiring Astronomy lol, ludicrous. Ship Building at worse and that is not too bad considering the only way you will need it is on a island eccentric map.

Considering you don't know what England's equivalent(British Museum) of Germany's ability of free Districts is, could you kindly not trumpet when discussing whether Germany's strength vs England's ?, especially considering it just maybe as powerful therefore moot.

 

[Lordkhan II.]

England's abilities comes in the mid game. So they are a fine beginner civ. But i would not describe them as weak.

The less convincing for me is france: grand tour.
If i would guess which civ would be first defeated on a contiental map. i would choose egypt. It depends most on peaceful interaction.

Strong on other hand is Brazil' ability, warmongerin germany and china's boost in building/research

china wins

 

[Gangrin]

The point was not the number of free units, it is the fact you do not have to build them or wait for them to be built when you first settle. Oppurtunity cost is important. One civ might Settle a city and build a unit to defend against the barbarians. England on the other hand doesnt have to and is free to build anything else. Nothing is truer in Civilisation than the concept that something now is > something x number of turns down the track. I did not forget about the Hansa's bonus to resources. The standard industrial site gets the same adjacency bonus when adjacent to mines and quarries. I did reference this in a previous post. Sure you can choose not build your Hansa next to commercial district but you are giving up the Major Adjacency bonus. Either way, unless you luck out beautifully you will most likely have to choose between maximising your Hansa Bonus, or maximising your Commercial district bonus.

I am basing by assumption on the fact the first Civil tech(one of) has a inspiration that requires you to find a foreign Continent. It stands to reason, considering the relative ease of acquiring inspirations that this would be relatively straight forward. Different map conditions will of course affect this but requiring Astronomy lol, ludicrous. Ship Building at worse and that is not too bad considering the only way you will need it is on a island eccentric map.

Considering you dont what Englands equivalent(British Museum) of Germany's ability of free Districts is, could you kindly not trumpet when discussing whether Germany's strength vs England's ?, especially considering it just maybe as powerful therfore moot.

You said it yourself: something now is > something x number of turns down the track. England will receive their free unit only in midgame at best, and still would need to build a decent army to protect it - because one free unit is not gonna cut it. Colonizing other continents is risky by itself. Does England do it better? Yes. Does it makes England stronger then Civs that get their bonuses from the get-go and without additional risk? No, it doesn't.

The thing with Hansa is it's flexible enough in it's adjacency bonuses that it can easily (and really profitably) be built in a cities any other nation wouldn't even consider (cause of lack of mines and quarries) - and, if lucky, place a freaking powerhouse

Well, i am basing my assumption on at least two let's plays (quill18's and yogcast's), where they were unable to reach another continent for 120+ and 70+ turns respectively. It's just dumb luck, just as with "Find Natural Wonder" eureka

We don't know what british museum is (and i say it again, it CAN be Britain's saving grace) but we do know what free district is - if city's population can support n districts, Germany can support n+1, meaning German cities can support more specialized buildings and therefore having better economy. If British museum is not a really powerful thing, Germany is clearly in the lead.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

You can start at the border of two continents, its is very possible that your second city is on another continent and an experienced player may go straight for another continent as england. In an 8 civ game foregine continents make up about 75% of the landmass.

So the bonus is not mid game at all.

England basically get rifleman as a unique unit, Redcoats may be the Praetorians of civilization VI, the comparison civ Germany only gets its single unique unit in the late game.

I don't see what is so good about Germany, each civ needs its own strategy and I have already before said about how I think Germany and England will play out so Im not going to do all that work once again but I can not see England being a weak civ by any means.

 

[dturtle1]

You said it yourself: something now is > something x number of turns down the track. England will receive their free unit only in midgame at best, and still would need to build a decent army to protect it - because one free unit is not gonna cut it. Colonizing other continents is risky by itself. Does England do it better? Yes. Does it makes England stronger then Civs that get their bonuses from the get-go and without additional risk? No, it doesn't.

The thing with Hansa is it's flexible enough in it's adjacency bonuses that it can easily (and really profitably) be built in a cities any other nation wouldn't even consider (cause of lack of mines and quarries) - and, if lucky, place a freaking powerhouse

Well, i am basing my assumption on at least two let's plays (quill18's and yogcast's), where they were unable to reach another continent for 120+ and 70+ turns respectively. It's just dumb luck, just as with "Find Natural Wonder" eureka

We don't know what british museum is (and i say it again, it CAN be Britain's saving grace) but we do know what free district is - if city's population can support n districts, Germany can support n+1, meaning German cities can support more specialized buildings and therefore having better economy. If British museum is not a really powerful thing, Germany is clearly in the lead.

Mid Game, lol. Unless your Mid game starts in the classical Era. One free unit is better than none. I am not saying it makes England a powerhouse i am saying it comparable to other Civ's Leader bonus, The free military slot might be cool and flexible but it only has a little strength overall(a customizable bonus that gets worse, relatively, the longer the game goes.). Getting a free unit with almost every city you found PLUS a cool unique unit in the Redcoat compares pretty well and that is what i am arguing. One is flexible but small potential. The other is restricted but greater potential. One is not necessarily better than the other.

In regards to the Hansa/Royal Dockyard, would you not agree also that England will more likely build Docks in cities that other civs wouldnt? Is this not the same thing.

Considering every single Civ Unique Ability is very powerful, why do expect that the British Museum wont be powerful? Monty gets to rush wonders, China gets greater Eureka bonuses, Brazil gets insane adjaceny bonuses next to rainforest. Why should England be any different?

Sorry Germany is not clearly in the lead, neither is England and that is my point. Everyone sees these relative straightforward bonuses in Germany and suddenly they are a powerhouse. I prefer to look at them on their merits and feel people are graetly underestimating England's power.

 

[Gangrin]

You can start at the border of two continents

And you also can not start at the border of two continents. I remind you, not all maps are Pangea maps and at least two of let's plays on Continents map did not see another continent for 70 and 120 turns. Britain can start pumping free units from the ancient era, it can start pumping them in Renaissance, it's all up to RNG, and Britain can do little about it.

I don't see what is so good about Germany

Really? I find flexibility of extra district, one of them at half the price and extra policy slot quite a nice package

In regards to the Hansa/Royal Dockyard, would you not agree also that England will more likely build Docks in cities that other civs wouldnt? Is this not the same thing.

Not exactly, no, for the reason that production is more important than gold and because Royal dockyards don't have additional sources of adjacency bonuses, therefore more options in placing them efficiently.

Considering every single Civ Unique Ability is very powerful, why do expect that the British Museum wont be powerful? Monty gets to rush wonders, China gets greater Eureka bonuses, Brazil gets insane adjaceny bonuses next to rainforest. Why should England be any different?

Because Civilization is known for its traditional lousy approach to balance. Remember, it's the same company and the same game designers who had CiV Ottomans and Korea in the same game. Britain already received some love in a form of free unit-thing after their announcement, probably because even they noticed Britain was not on par with others. Maybe it was enough. But i have serious doubts

Sorry Germany is not clearly in the lead

and i totally agree with this. Brazil is the topdog with China breathing on it's neck. Germany still superior to Britain until we know more about museum

 

[Matthew.]

Do we know what the free unit type is?

All things considered, a free unit is a pretty low value bonus. It doesn't translate well into gameplay. For example, let's look at China vs. Germany in Civ 5. Germany can get a free archer or two from barb camps, which is okay-ish. Or, China gets a lot of extra gpt from their UB. Which can also be used to purchase those same archers, or they get the freedom of spending that gold elsewhere. That gold also persists throughout the entire game.

It is that lack of freedom that hurts that bonus type. You often don't even need that free unit a lot of the time, and it can't be used for anything else, you are stuck with it.

Yeah, okay, a free unit is a free unit. It is something. It is just something I doubt is going to help rank England any higher than mid-tier on a tier list.

Overall the package feels like France from BNW. You get bonuses towards a mid-game military push, which is followed up into a strong culture game. But it is an odd synergy which probably won't appeal to many players. Strong warmonger types aren't going to have use for museums, and strong culture types aren't going to bother with mid-game military pushes. It is a very niche style that ends up almost a gimmick.

We will need to wait and see how this all actually shakes down. Though in regards to the recent discussion on England vs. Germany: As an expansionist warmonger type of player, Germany has far more appeal to me than England. I'd much rather have flexible, guaranteed bonuses of an extra military card, extra district, and production bonuses.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Do we know what the free unit type is?

Likely it is the best melee unit you currently have access to.

All things considered, a free unit is a pretty low value bonus.

It is not a random role like it was in civilization V, if you settle 30 cities on a different continent you get 30 units and the other part of that ability is the access to the redcoat.

It is that lack of freedom that hurts that bonus type.

All unique abilities come with a lack of freedom. For example Germany need to build an extra district (which is not free) and Brazil needs jungles.

You often don't even need that free unit a lot of the time, and it can't be used for anything else, you are stuck with it.

In about 100% of cases I would be happy to get a free unit, I guess you don't like aggressive play but Civilization VI seems to greatly encourage aggresive play as you can run around and pillage the other civs districts and improvements if not just conquer their cities. England is a very aggresive civilization.

Strong warmonger types aren't going to have use for museums, and strong culture types aren't going to bother with mid-game military pushes.

This is maybe true in older civilization games but in civilization VI you have two tech trees and one is based on culture. Cards, Governments and many important stuff can only be researched by culture. And then we do not know how tourism work in civilization VI.

Brazil is the topdog with China breathing on it's neck.

That seems like a bold statement, you really have to make good arguments for me to think that so is the case.

As far as I can see the civilizations are different and require different playstyles, England and Germany are different and it is not possible to say which of these have the advantage as there are many factors that will effect the strength of the civilizations.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Do we know what the free unit type is?

All things considered, a free unit is a pretty low value bonus. It doesn't translate well into gameplay. For example, let's look at China vs. Germany in Civ 5. Germany can get a free archer or two from barb camps, which is okay-ish. Or, China gets a lot of extra gpt from their UB. Which can also be used to purchase those same archers, or they get the freedom of spending that gold elsewhere. That gold also persists throughout the entire game.

It is that lack of freedom that hurts that bonus type. You often don't even need that free unit a lot of the time, and it can't be used for anything else, you are stuck with it.

Yeah, okay, a free unit is a free unit. It is something. It is just something I doubt is going to help rank England any higher than mid-tier on a tier list.

Overall the package feels like France from BNW. You get bonuses towards a mid-game military push, which is followed up into a strong culture game. But it is an odd synergy which probably won't appeal to many players. Strong warmonger types aren't going to have use for museums, and strong culture types aren't going to bother with mid-game military pushes. It is a very niche style that ends up almost a gimmick.

We will need to wait and see how this all actually shakes down. Though in regards to the recent discussion on England vs. Germany: As an expansionist warmonger type of player, Germany has far more appeal to me than England. I'd much rather have flexible, guaranteed bonuses of an extra military card, extra district, and production bonuses.

Actually the museum and Britain's other uniques synergize pretty well with an aggressive CV where you steal wonders and works from other civs through conquest. It feels kind of like Assyria and their library.

I see that synergy but I still think Germany is quite a bit better. Surprised at the discussion actually.