5CC - Civ3 Vanilla

[Scrivener]

My name is Scrivener, town scribe and historian. Four (real life) friends have challenged me to a contest known as the Five City Challenge - with some interesting additional rules. We will all use the same game. That is to say, we will start the game and save it before any moves are made, then make copies for each player to use. A vote was taken and we will use the American civilization (not my first choice), there will be no barbarians (thankfully), everything else will be random (chosen by the computer - ouch).

Some of the basic rules: (1) obviously a maximum of five cities at ANY time. (2) all cities must be founded - you are not allowed to capture cities - even if you lose your cities to an attacking AI. (3) you may not build wonders (great/small) that could become obsolete AND you may only have a maximum of five wonders (one per city). (4) you may not declare war on other civilizations - you can wage war if attacked but must cease hostilities if the AI requests a peace treaty. (5) there are no trading restrictions. (6) you may only change government once during the game.

I know what you're thinking - this is insane! My friends have been playing Civilization from the beginning of time, or so it seems. We chose Civ3 Vanilla because it's the only version I have. They chose the 5CC because I read about it but haven't tried it yet. We have allotted times to hang out and play so no one player will be farther ahead than the others. This is a first for me but it sounds like fun. I will be reporting my adventure as it unfolds.

Respectfully,
Scrivener

 

[megistatos]

Hmm. Difficulty level? Map size?

Sounds interesting. I'll be following.

When a peace treaty is offered can you renegotiate it in your favour? And can you offer peace yourself? Do Small Wonders count towards the 1 per city rule?

If you like this kind of competitve play, check out GOTM. Although you'd need to get Play the World or Conquests to play unfortunately.

 

[Scrivener]

Hail everyone! Megistatos, here's some more information about the 5CC game. Map size, land mass and water coverage, temperature, and rivals are all random. Difficulty is Warlord. We may negotiate when offered a peace treaty but must utimately accept (that turn). We, however, may not offer a peace treaty, even if we are being crushed. We are only allowed five wonders (great or small) and only one wonder per city. Last night we sat down and started the game. Below is the starting location. That's another rule; you must found the first city without moving the settler. Luckily he was in a fairly good location (next to a river, two spices, and one gold). We copied the game and this evening will begin game play. So far I can only see the tiles adjacent to my settler. Wish me luck. I'm going to need it.

Here's my thoughts on a game plan. Once my city is founded I will produce a scout, giving me two since I start with one. This will allow me to find other civilizations to begin trading techs with. I was thinking my first tech should be Ceremonial Burial - it's typically the quickest to obtain and having a temple early will increase my cultural bounderies. Since I can only have one change in government I was thinking Democracy. With that in mind I would try to get Construction as quickly as possible to allow for larger cities (more production/commerce).

Respectfully,
Scrivener

 

[Quintillus]

Hmmm, I'd go for Republic. Mostly because it's nearly a whole era earlier - you'll be in Despotism quite a long time if you wait for Democracy. Also because if you get too much war weariness a Democracy could be overthrown, resulting in technically breaking the rule of only one government change.

Democracy does give faster workers and marginally lower corruption, but nearly a whole era longer is far too long to wait to change governments.

Otherwise, looks good. I'll be looking forward to seeing how it plays out !

 

[Aabraxan]

I think Q's got a good point in that waiting until Demo makes for an awfully, awfully long time spent in Despo. I'm not sure that Republic is the right choice, though. First, he's playing Vanilla. IIRC, Vanilla Republic offers no unit support. As this is a 5CC, we can reasonably expect that those 5 will be metros. Second, given the restriction that the human player may never offer peace, I'm not sure a no WW government wouldn't be wise. I say, "I'm not sure," because I'm not sure that it's really necessary, either, given the restriction that the player must accept peace if it's offered. Quint may be right. Republic might be the right choice. I don't know about that. I do think that waiting for Demo is a mistake.

Research -- I can't think of what you start with, but I'd say start with a 2nd tier tech. CB can be popped from a hut and you can put a couple of scouts out. I don't think you can pop CB from a hut if you're researching it. So grab a 2nd tier tech, put a couple of scouts on foot patrol and trade for it, I say.

Good luck, Scrivener! Will we be seeing write-ups from the four friends? Or at least screenshots?

 

[killerkid]

Second, given the restriction that the human player may never offer peace, I'm not sure a no WW government wouldn't be wise.

Well, THAT was confusing!! A triple negative??

I think that Republic might be OK, except for the no support problem.

I will be following this with interest.

The best choice for your second city would probably be west, along the river.
Your first city will have plenty of commerce, as the optimal first 2 squares are on the river, NE, and E of starting spot.

For research, perhaps Alpha>Math.

You can't research any 2nd tier techs, so this would be the less traveled path, and you'd get a monopoly on math, as the AI's research it late. Since you aren't sure about the government you would like, it's best to research techs to keep up (or that are useful).
CB is traded for quite easily, or popped from a hut. Besides, it probably won't be built in your capital for sometime, as that will be your main settler production center.

For wonders, I recommend Theory of Evolution , Intelligence Agency, Newton's and Copernicus.

Is there Wall Street in Vanilla? That may be worth consideration.

Do you have a VC in mind?
Last, what level do you usually play at? (Above/Below/At Warlord?)

 

[Aabraxan]

Well, THAT was confusing!! A triple negative??

My English teachers always taught me to avoid double negatives. They never mentioned triples.

 

[darski]

lurker's comment: if there are no barbarians I think it means there are no goody huts. I read that here a couple of times but I could be wrong. I play vanilla but have never played no barbs.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: I think that's right, darski. I totally missed the fact that this is a "no barbs" game. Nonetheless, the AI will still research CB and Scrivener can still trade for it.

 

[Scrivener]

Hail everyone. I sent my first scout toward the west while my second scout headed eastward. It wasn't long before I came across the Greeks, followed by the Aztecs.

My first and only city has produced a Scout, Granary, and I'm one turn away from a Worker (which will give me two). I will then produce a Settler to get a second city founded.

I'm taking a chance by not producing a warrior/spearman but I hope the Greeks and Aztecs aren't in a hurry to go to war. They are both Polite toward me at the moment.

I have the following techs: Bronze Working (from the Greeks), Masonry, Pottery, Warrior Code (from the Aztecs), and Ceremonial Burial. I'm currently working on Alphabet.

There are no barbarians, so no huts. Vanilla does have Wallstreet, and the other wonders you mentioned Killerkid. My first thought was the Great Library then I realized it will become obsolete and against the rules to build.

The other players are big into Civ4 and play online alot too. They won't be posting about this game but I will let you know if any of them moves significantly ahead or behind the pack. I will list them as Player 1 thru 4, and I will use my own name, Scriviener.

As it is early in the game there's really not much to report from the others. We arent allowed to view the world map of the others but rather look only at certain advisor pages (domestic, trade, foreign, and/or science to see the overall progress of the other games.)

I havent played very much since buying the game and have only played Warlord (our current level) a few times. The others have played all levels and play online as well.

Here is my world as of 3000BC.

Respectfully,
Scrivener

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Since this is Vanilla, do some RCP (Ring City Placement). Going for distance 5 cities looks like a very good thing.

I'd place one city towards the southeast, on the tile southest of the wheat. It will be on a river, it will be coastal and you get the wheat without additional culture.

Another towards the northwest, on the BG between the lake and the deer. Again you won't need a 'duct, you'd get the deer without culture, and the fish with culture.

A third maybe towards the northeast, on the tile currently still in the fog, southeast of the of the mountain. All that can be said here is that it would be on a river too.


As wonders, I'd say you should opt for these:
• Sistine Chapel (!)
• Copernicus' Observatory
• Newton's University

The Sistine Chapel simply because you'll eventually be hurting for happyness. Especially metros are tough to keep happy. 6 content faces Cathedrals will help you a lot here.

The other two, because they make your your few cities all that more valuable. But make sure you place them in commerce rich locations, like Washington.

Also keep in mind that, if you are going for either a Space Ship or for a Diplo win, both of these victory conditions require an additional wonder.


(Oh, and don't worry about the unit support under the Republic here at all. You'll only have to pay 1 gpt per unit, while in C3C you'd have to pay 2 gpt per units that exceeds the unit suppost limit. Assuming you have 5 cities, with 30 or more units you're better off with Vanilla.)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

And come to think of it, the only Victory Conditions that you can go for are Space Ship, Diplo or Conquest. Domination is out because you can't get enough cities, 100K is out because you can't get enough cities, 20K is out because you can't get enough culture in a single city. Of the remaining the Space Ship and Diplo are very similar, with the striking difference that a Diplo win is earlier and doesn't rely on any resources.

So, eventually I think you can decide between Diplo or Conquest.

 

[killerkid]

Diplo would be easier. 5CCC is hard for someone who hasn't played a lot.

I would change Washington to a settler. You don't need to improve your terrain that much yet. In the early game, having about one worker per city is a good rule of thumb. Any more is usually overkill.

I also think that sistene chapel isn't a must, becuase on warlord you will be ahead in technology, so you can trade your techs for luxes to keep your people happy. Besides all his cities will have Cathedrals, temples, colosseums, so that's 6 content faces (I think) plus the 4 base you get on Warlord.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I also think that sistene chapel isn't a must, becuase on warlord you will be ahead in technology, so you can trade your techs for luxes to keep your people happy. Besides all his cities will have Cathedrals, temples, colosseums, so that's 6 content faces (I think) plus the 4 base you get on Warlord.

To trade for luxes you need a trade route first. And I think it will take a long time until you have some and can trade effectively for for luxes. Especially here, on Warlord on a huge map. It is probably not possible to trade until you use quite some work force to actually build some trade routes and hook up the luxes for the AI.

 

[Quintillus]

I'd say Sistine Chapel is about as good as anything else. It beats Sun Tzu's and Smith's with five cities, police stations can make up for no Universal Suffrage, and Theory of Evolution isn't as valuable on Warlord as Monarch+ (provided you do get Copernicus and Newton...otherwise you might need the research boost with only 5 cities). Hoover's isn't that great with only five cities - might as well build coal plants - and Sistine gives more happiness than J.S. Bach's. I wouldn't even consider Magellan's. Shakespeare's Theatre is out unless you get superearly temple/library/colosseum/cathedral/university/Free Artistry...even if you can get it before 1000 AD I doubt the 16 culture (doubled after 1000 years) would be enough for 20K. If you need nukes you've got bigger problems than the wonder restriction, and SETI is too late to be worth it. Pyramids aren't really worth it on 5CC, and I think everything else Ancient goes obsolete. That leaves Leonardo's Workshop as the only one I'd consider replacing Sistine with. Half-price upgrades could come quite in handy with only five cities to fund them. But I don't know that it outweighs extra happiness.

You could build both Sistine and Leonardo's and decide which one of UN/Apollo Program you want in the Modern Age. You'll know if you've blown your rep or if you don't have any aluminum on the continent before you are committed to either one, so you don't really have to build both.

I was about to advocate storming the Aztecs early on, until I remembered the no declaring war restriction. D'oh! Well, I guess it's early expansion then, at least till four more cities are founded.