[Vote] (6-25) Sacred Sites - Rework (based on @Stalker0 version)

[adan_eslavo]

	Current:	Proposal
Sacred Sites	Hotels and all buildings purchased with Faith provide +3 Tourism each. World and Natural Wonders gain +4 Tourism each. Hermitage provides +10 Culture and +10 Tourism.	All Religious* buildings, Shrines, Temples and Holy Sites gain +3 Faith and +3 Tourism each. -33% Faith cost for all Religious* buildings. Natural Wonders inside the borders provide additional 2 Happiness.

*Religious buildings are these that does not have Production cost, have Faith cost.

1. Overall issue with this Reformation Belief is that it does not give anything early on beside Tourism. With some Faith boost and additional Happiness I think it will stand much better with the competitors.
2. Sacred Sites give a bit more to Shrines for those players who want to pursue relious targets. There's only one other belief (Pantheon) giving bonus to them: Goddess of the Home, which focuses on Food.
3. Goddess of Nature and Sacred Sites both concentrated on Natural Wonders giving them yields. I suggest changing the Natural Wonders bonus to instead, so they would not overlap.
4. World Wonders and Natural Wonders are too common things to be included. Otherwise this belief would be 100% pick. Now it's not too op, but if player will be determined to go full religion, then it could be his 1st pick.

MAGI: This was originally a counterproposal to Sacred Sites - National Wonder Inclusion, which was not sponsored. References to original proposal moved to the spoiler below for clarification

Spoiler Reason for counterproposing the original idea :

While I like the Stalker's idea, the belief will get a bit crowded having a total of 5 abilities, that are a bit weirdly connected to each other thus not making a good combo. Also name "Sacred Sites" induce that there should be some Faith. Faith instead of Tourism can be more useful early on.

 

[azum4roll]

The text needs to be clarified. The belief only works on Mandirs, Cathedrals, Monastery etc., not Public School, Amphitheater, Mission etc. purchased with Faith.

The condition is kinda complicated, needs to satisfy all of the below:

• Has a faith cost
• Has no production cost
• Unlocked by belief or policy

Does "-25% Faith cost for all Religious buildings." have the same conditions?

 

[adan_eslavo]

The text needs to be clarified. The belief only works on Mandirs, Cathedrals, Monastery etc., not Public School, Amphitheater, Mission etc. purchased with Faith.

The condition is kinda complicated, needs to satisfy all of the below:

• Has a faith cost
• Has no production cost
• Unlocked by belief or policy

Does "-25% Faith cost for all Religious buildings." have the same conditions?

I will. I was thinking of Religious buildings only. Otherwise it would be too much.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I amended the proposal with my recent thoughts. It was completely overhauled leaving only key features.

 

[rkkn]

1. Overall issue with this Pantheon is that it does not give anything early on.

it isn't a pantheon. it's a reformation belief. ie something that is only unlocked after spreading your religion enough. ie a mid to late game thing

 

[adan_eslavo]

it isn't a pantheon. it's a reformation belief. ie something that is only unlocked after spreading your religion enough. ie a mid to late game thing

Thanks! Damn, I missed that. Maybe because main proposal didn't mention that either. Hmm. But still, I think it's pretty solid proposal. I will edit the main post not to add another confusion.

 

[Recursive]

Sponsored.

 

[hokath]

I use this as the follow up to Beauty pantheon. Max tourism in a tall setting.
This changes it to be a wide booster.

Death to wide. Tall forever. Voted no.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I use this as the follow up to Beauty pantheon. Max tourism in a tall setting.
This changes it to be a wide booster.

Death to wide. Tall forever. Voted no.

It's a pity that you are telling this now when nothing can be changed. Are there any other options for tall empires, or this is the only one?

 

[Rekk]

From what I understand, Sacred Sites is meant to be one of the few ways to boost Wide Tourism.

That said, this seems to be too much. This proposal gives Sacred Sites more faith, lower faith costs (translating to yet more faith), more tourism, more Happiness, all for a cost of a reduction in 10 culture. Is the Reformation belief that much worse than the others?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I use this as the follow up to Beauty pantheon. Max tourism in a tall setting.
This changes it to be a wide booster.

Death to wide. Tall forever. Voted no.

From what I understand, Sacred Sites is meant to be one of the few ways to boost Wide Tourism.

That said, this seems to be too much. This proposal gives Sacred Sites more faith, lower faith costs (translating to yet more faith), more tourism, more Happiness, all for a cost of a reduction in 10 culture. Is the Reformation belief that much worse than the others?

I would like to hear more of such voices in the discussion phase, not voting one, but as I can hear them now, and even I can see that votes are split, I'm not sure if I still want to see a revision of this belief.
What's more, and I noticed that recently, is the fact that Happiness boost from Natural Wonders can be a bit tricky with multi-tile ones, so it can have tough repercusions (for VP, but more for More Wonders mod).
I changed my vote to "no" then.

 

[HeroOfTheSword]

I would like to hear more of such voices in the discussion phase, not voting one, but as I can hear them now, and even I can see that votes are split, I'm not sure if I still want to see a revision of this belief.
What's more, and I noticed that recently, is the fact that Happiness boost from Natural Wonders can be a bit tricky with multi-tile ones, so it can have tough repercusions (for VP, but more for More Wonders mod).
I changed my vote to "no" then.

So should we all vote no now if you feel it isn't going to work? I like the proposed changes myself but I'm not a hardcore player, rarely get beyong the industrial era, so I don't want to be voting for something that could have repercusions for more serious players

 

[hokath]

I would like to hear more of such voices in the discussion phase, not voting one

Apologies, I tried to read everything but I missed this one apparently.

 

[Legen]

It's a pity that you are telling this now when nothing can be changed. Are there any other options for tall empires, or this is the only one?

To the Glory of God and Inspired Works are solid picks for Tall.

 

[adan_eslavo]

So should we all vote no now if you feel it isn't going to work? I like the proposed changes myself but I'm not a hardcore player, rarely get beyong the industrial era, so I don't want to be voting for something that could have repercusions for more serious players

That should be your decision. I cannot tell you to vote yes, no or both. I can only point out the things that, uhm, are considered not the best in this proposal. I feel it is not ideal.

 

[Legen]

From what I understand, Sacred Sites is meant to be one of the few ways to boost Wide Tourism.

That said, this seems to be too much. This proposal gives Sacred Sites more faith, lower faith costs (translating to yet more faith), more tourism, more Happiness, all for a cost of a reduction in 10 culture. Is the Reformation belief that much worse than the others?

My experience with Wide Sacred Sites is that it doesn't give enough tourism to compensate for the increased penalty of having more cities than your opponent. -5% per extra city, stack additively, tends to overwhelm the extra tourism you get on your extra cities. Add to it that the current Sacred Sites gives practically nothing besides tourism and it's a rather questionable choice for Wide; you're often better picking a different reformation if you're in for a really wide empire, like Divine Teachings, Faith of the Masses, or Crusader Spirit (conquest being the most realistic way to get extremely wide).

 

[dostillevi]

Is this intended to effect religious buildings granted from follower beliefs? I believe there is some conflict here with similar logic used by mods as to what buildings count as "faith buildings purchased by faith", and the language to explain this has never been clear.

 

[azum4roll]

The text needs to be clarified. The belief only works on Mandirs, Cathedrals, Monastery etc., not Public School, Amphitheater, Mission etc. purchased with Faith.

The condition is kinda complicated, needs to satisfy all of the below:

• Has a faith cost
• Has no production cost
• Unlocked by belief or policy

Does "-25% Faith cost for all Religious buildings." have the same conditions?

These are the current criteria. The proposal follows these.