[Vote] (6-33) Move Coal Reveal From Steam Power To Chemistry

[Stalker0]

Current: Coal is revealed on the Steam Power Tech

Proposal: Coal is revealed on the Chemistry Tech

Rationale: This is meant to address a few things:

• Currently steam power (and seaports) are a bit overpowered compared to railroad because of the coal reveal. This means that sea ports are always available faster than train stations, so even if you consider the buildings balanced, Sea ports have an edge. Because Railroad can't activate some of its best stuff without steam power, it creates an imbalance in the tech lines.
• One of the issues with midgame expansion is that, while you would love to start acquiring the next tier of strategic resources...you don't know where any of them are at! This will allow you to use pioneers to actually settle cities to acquire coal, rather than just guessing and hoping you got lucky when the coal reveal comes out.
• Chemistry is an ok tech but it stands against some really powerful techs in that tier. Further if the leaning tower is taken it loses a lot of luster. A coal reveal gives it a better comparison.
• Steam Power is a great tech on its own, and is still very attractive even without coal reveal, so it can afford to lose this without affecting its balance.
• Thematically, Chemistry seems a solid tech to be revealing a new chemical strategic resource and putting it to good use.

 

[azum4roll]

Currently both the sellable (whether this resource can be sold) and improveable (whether this resource can be gained by settling on it or building some buildings that grant it) tech for strategics are set to follow the reveal tech.
Meanwhile the Philanthropy policy gives the resources if they're revealed.

Does this proposal change the sellable and improveable techs also? I assume they aren't going to stay at Steam Power...

 

[rkkn]

I don't understand the above post. Coal, like iron (and aluminum), is improved by mines, no? The improvable tech is before the reveal.
also I have never heard of a philanthropy policy

 

[azum4roll]

also I have never heard of a philanthropy policy

Foreign Service. That was the BNW name.

I don't understand the above post. Coal, like iron (and aluminum), is improved by mines, no? The improvable tech is before the reveal.

Settling a city on these doesn't grant the resources before the improveable tech. See the bug in 4.1 that does not gate that.

 

[rkkn]

isn't oil the only resource with a separate improvable tech?

or are you saying that it's possible to, say, set a uranium improvable/sellable tech to pottery and then have cities seemingly randomly gain uranium on settling despite not being able to see it?

 

[azum4roll]

isn't oil the only resource with a separate improvable tech?

or are you saying that it's possible to, say, set a uranium improvable/sellable tech to pottery and then have cities seemingly randomly gain uranium on settling despite not being able to see it?

It's already happening in 4.1. You can settle on a hidden coal and AI will immediately ask you for them.

 

[Stalker0]

Currently both the sellable (whether this resource can be sold) and improveable (whether this resource can be gained by settling on it or building some buildings that grant it) tech for strategics are set to follow the reveal tech.
Meanwhile the Philanthropy policy gives the resources if they're revealed.

Does this proposal change the sellable and improveable techs also? I assume they aren't going to stay at Steam Power...

The intention was for all aspects of coal to unlock on chemistry. you can mine it and sell it once you have chemistry.

 

[azum4roll]

Hmm, then AI will start asking for Coal in Renaissance. That really should be fixed.

 

[Stalker0]

Hmm, then AI will start asking for Coal in Renaissance. That really should be fixed.

do you mean once you unlock coal, or do you mean just at any point in the renaissance?

If its the former, ultimately that's fine, you can trade iron before you make swordsman for example. If you want to trade a bit early for when your key techs come online more power to you. If its anytime during the era period, well that's just silly,.

 

[azum4roll]

do you mean once you unlock coal, or do you mean just at any point in the renaissance?

If its the former, ultimately that's fine, you can trade iron before you make swordsman for example. If you want to trade a bit early for when your key techs come online more power to you. If its anytime during the era period, well that's just silly,.

With the tech. But there's no reason AI should buy your strategics if they can't use them. Currently they always buy (for a minimal price).

 

[axatin]

With the tech. But there's no reason AI should buy your strategics if they can't use them. Currently they always buy (for a minimal price).

I will fix that, already working on it.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this.

 

[pineappledan]

Why chemistry? Isn’t that on the opposite side of the tech tree from anything that uses coal? You could still reach railroads without unlocking chemistry.

I’m opposed to moving resource reveals to before you have anything unlocked that uses them. I’ve already railed against the one other place where this happens — iron — and I see no good reason to reproduce bad decisions elsewhere.

Have fun swatting away trade agreements for strategics no one can use for an extra era.

 

[rkkn]

Have fun swatting away trade agreements for strategics no one can use for an extra era.

this doesn't happen anymore. AI doesn't buy strategics it has no use for

Why chemistry? Isn’t that on the opposite side of the tech tree from anything that uses coal? You could still reach railroads without unlocking chemistry.

yes, but the situation is the same currently. you can unlock railroads without steam power (current coal tech). Would you rather have it on gunpowder?

 

[pineappledan]

I'd rather have it stay put, on a tech with something that actually requires Coal

 

[adan_eslavo]

I'd rather have it stay put, on a tech with something that actually requires Coal

I looked at the tech tree, and indeed, there are no things for 2 tiers that could use it. Unless we add one in next congress.
Tough decision, really. I didn't notice Coal being in wrong place. The only thing that always bothered me was the long gap between Iron and Coal.
But moving Coal eralier, and only moving, does not resolve the thing.

 

[Stalker0]

I looked at the tech tree, and indeed, there are no things for 2 tiers that could use it. Unless we add one in next congress.

The notion that a strategic resource is revealed before it has something to spend it on is not without precedent. Iron is revealed before swords, aluminum is revealed before subs, uranium before nukes.

While the absolute gap is wider with coal in this proposal, there are many gameplays where I will get iron but not get swords for quite a while, or aluminum but no subs....and the game does not implode.

And note that this gap is part of the reason for the proposal in the first place. This is the time in the game when you are often doing second expansions, and if your going to do that in some ways to acquire coal (which is devilishly rare on many maps), you need to know where it is. You need the time to go found those cities before you actually need the material, and that's where the extra gap proves useful.

 

[pineappledan]

Iron is revealed before swords, aluminum is revealed before subs, uranium before nukes.

- Iron’s early unlock is bad too. Precedents that are dumb don’t excuse making more of them. It doesn’t even make sense, unlocking at Bronze, of all things. I already tried to rectify this, but you dogged sword-rushers won’t allow it.
- arguably uranium/atomic theory do have a thematic uranium unlock on the same tech: Manhattan Project.
Uranium and Aluminum have very strong thematic - IRL reasons to be on the techs where they are: Aluminum refinement requiring a lot of electricity, and uranium having strong links to atomic theory.

Coal and Chemistry has no such thematic tie-in.
This doesn’t solve a problem, it just makes the tech tree uglier and looser for no material gain.

 

[Stalker0]

This doesn’t solve a problem, it just makes the tech tree uglier and looser for no material gain.

It solves several problems already outlined in the rationale. Now whether it creates too many "new problems" is of course the debate, but it certainly provides value in several ways.

 

[adan_eslavo]

If we have some kind of asymetry between railroad and steam power then it would be beter to move fe mine boost there.

I really don't like this change. Like pdan said it is on the other side of the tree, and indeed it was the only tech fitting thematically, but barely because rest is totally out of the topic.