(6-CP) God of Craftsmen Buff - Increase Bonus to Stoneworks

[Stalker0]

Current:
God of Craftsman

• +1 Faith and Production from Quarries and Stone Works.
• +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.

Proposal: God of Craftsmen - Increase Stoneworks Faith and Prod bonus from +1 to +2.

Rationale: This pantheon is very brittle, you have to have perfect circumstances to use it. Even if you can found with it, is it really worth it? There are lots of other pantheons that give better yields with less risk. This change at least gives it a bit quicker faith scaling and a little bit more production.


Database Changes

 

[rkkn]

what do you mean by risk? What is risky about it?

 

[CppMaster]

Risk of not being good, probably

 

[adan_eslavo]

And losing the game because of the butterfly effect.

 

[rkkn]

yeah I still don't get it. "risk" implies there are unknown elements. You will certainly have every quarry resource revealed (there's only one tech for this: wheel) by the time you are picking your pantheon.

Or do you mean to say that it's risk of not being able to found a religion? In other words saying that this pantheon has subpar faith generation and is mostly focused on the other yields, so that there's risk in trying to go for those other yields while having low faith. If that is the case, then. Hm, I see. Though I never saw it as particularly "other yield" focused.

 

[ma_kuh]

I guess I'm saying this about all the pantheons, but give it a unique bonus and it becomes a lot more choosable.

Maybe:
Stoneworks +2 +2- => Stoneworks grants the city +10% when making buildings, cities get +2 .

 

[rkkn]

I guess I'm saying this about all the pantheons, but give it a unique bonus and it becomes a lot more choosable.

I think this is a good idea in general! Giving a lot of the pantheons unique bonuses sounds much more interesting and fun than just picking which pantheon gives you the most yields.

 

[Stalker0]

yeah I still don't get it. "risk" implies there are unknown elements. You will certainly have every quarry resource revealed (there's only one tech for this: wheel) by the time you are picking your pantheon.

Or do you mean to say that it's risk of not being able to found a religion? In other words saying that this pantheon has subpar faith generation and is mostly focused on the other yields, so that there's risk in trying to go for those other yields while having low faith. If that is the case, then. Hm, I see. Though I never saw it as particularly "other yield" focused.

So the risk for craftsman is that it takes a lot of dedication to use. You HAVE to get several workers going, and you HAVE to beeline to construction (which is an expensive tech that early in the game). In fact I would argue the best way to make craftsman successful is with MoH, which of course is another risk.

If you commit all that and then someone else takes the pantheon, your in a bad spot. Whereas a lot of other pantheons leave you in a position where if you can't get it, well you haven't commited that much you can pivot more easily.

So that's what I mean by "risky". That is then compounded by the fact that craftsmen just isn't all that great all things considered, so the risk just isn't worth it.

 

[Legen]

That doesn't sound riskier than Springtime or Commerce, which also require a late Ancient tech and a good amount of workers. I'm not against a buff, but the rationale doesn't match.

What I find to be the difficulty with Craftsmen is that quarries tiles have no food yields, which makes it hard to work all the tiles the pantheon enhances. Earth Mother sometimes have the same issue, but certain mining luxuries do give food (e.g. Salt) that this pantheon doesn't always have to deal with what Craftsmen has to.

 

[Stalker0]

That doesn't sound riskier than Springtime or Commerce, which also require a late Ancient tech and a good amount of workers. I'm not against a buff, but the rationale doesn't match.

Comparing to Springtime. The key difference is, the herbalist gives you a +2 faith (rather than +1 for the stone works) and is:

• 42 hammers Cheaper than the Stone works (almost half the cost)
• Doesn't require an improved resource, so I can build it while I am improving the terrain, stone works has to wait until a quarry is made.

Springtime in my experience is a faster founder than craftsman, and frankly springtime isn't that fast of a founder either, so yeah that delay matters.

Commerce gets an immediate 4 faith boost when set up your first ITR, so it scales much quicker out of the gate than craftsman.


Ultimately this is not just a theoretical exercise, I have done a LOT of starts over the years, and I have consistently noticed that craftsman is a tougher pantheon to work with than most of the others.

 

[ma_kuh]

I avoid GoCrafts for all the reasons you mention. There's a world of difference between needing to spend time on:
worker (could be gold/instant) => high-cost improvement => high-cost building (for a pantheon)
and
low-cost building

 

[azum4roll]

You will certainly have every quarry resource revealed (there's only one tech for this: wheel) by the time you are picking your pantheon.

Nah, you forgot about Uranium

So the risk for craftsman is that it takes a lot of dedication to use. You HAVE to get several workers going, and you HAVE to beeline to construction (which is an expensive tech that early in the game). In fact I would argue the best way to make craftsman successful is with MoH, which of course is another risk.

If you commit all that and then someone else takes the pantheon, your in a bad spot. Whereas a lot of other pantheons leave you in a position where if you can't get it, well you haven't commited that much you can pivot more easily.

So that's what I mean by "risky". That is then compounded by the fact that craftsmen just isn't all that great all things considered, so the risk just isn't worth it.

So, how does it compare to other tier 2 building pantheons? Do you not rush the building?
Market - Renewal
Herbalist - Springtime
Barracks - War
Walls - Protection

EDIT: I see you've responded to some of those.

stone works has to wait until a quarry is made.

Maybe THAT'S the main problem about this pantheon. Which is why we moved most of the bonuses to the Palace.

Springtime does require chopping usually, and if not, Herbalist isn't a very good building. So there's a counterbalance.

I think rather than Production (which quarry + Stone Works already have a lot of), we should give 1 to Stone Works.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Because this thread got a bit dirty I cleaned it up:

Current	Stalker0	ma_kuh	azum4roll	My suggestion
+1 Faith and Production from Quarries and Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries. +2 Faith and Production from Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+2 to Cities. +1 Faith and Production from Quarries. Stone Works grant +10% towards buildings. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries. +1 Faith and Culture from Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+1 to Cities. +1 Faith and Production from Quarries. Stone Works grant +10% towards buildings. +1 Culture, Science and Faith from the Palace.

I like the @ma_kuh's idea the most. Although if we move Faith from Stone Works to City it gets similar to what Palace gives. I would lower the palace's Faith to +1 then, so all yields would be +1 and city bonus as well to +1 . What do you think? I suggested my counterproposal.

 

[ma_kuh]

I'll put together a counter-proposal that includes the % for buildings. I still think there's too much overlap between Craftsmen and Earth Mother though, don't you think? And we don't have a more generic Hills pantheon, just an implied Mines=Hills sort of thing.

Pantheon	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
God of Craftsmen	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries and Stone Works.​ +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.​	+1 Faith and Production from Mines on resources.​ +1 Faith, Production, and Science from Quarries. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.​ Stoneworks gives +10% towards buildings.​	Removed the palace yields in favor of yields from mines. Slight emphasis on science over culture for variety, and to distinguish it more from the new proposed Earth Mother. Ties together the "builder" pantheon by combining two somewhat uncommon improvements. Includes a powerful scaling component, but only accessible if settling near quarry resources. Makes settling more interesting.
Earth Mother	+1 Faith and Production from Monuments. +1 Faith and Culture from Mines on resources.	+1 Faith and Production +2 Food from Monuments. +1 Faith and Food for every 2 worked Hills. +1 Faith and Culture from Mines Hills with resources.	Reworked to be a bit of a fixer for hill starts with low non-production yields. Becomes more of a cross-over pantheon that lets you work more hills by providing food. Maintains an emphasis on culture to distinguish itself from other options.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@ma_kuh Do you want me to put your idea in my counterproposal?

 

[ma_kuh]

If you think it's solid enough. I don't mind if you manage the post.

I don't envy the magi on this one, this slew of pantheon changes is shaping up to be pretty entwined.

 

[adan_eslavo]

If you think it's solid enough. I don't mind if you manage the post.

I don't envy the magi on this one, this slew of pantheon changes is shaping up to be pretty entwined.

Done.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this.

 

[Hinin]

MAGI - Title edit to make the distinction clearer with 6-29b