[Vote] (7-11) Hospital and Medical Lab Rework Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 11
Discussion Thread: (7-11) Hospital and Medical Lab Rework
Proposer: @Phosphoraptor
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details
This is a proposal to rework the late game Growth buildings which dont feel great to build since growth itself is worth much less in the late game. Production is much better spent on processes, Victory progression and units, so these buildings are often left unbuilt as they cant really compete with the above alternatives. The proposal will attempt to rework these buildings by trimming the less impactful bonuses and changing them to have a purpose other than growth or have growth provide larger rewards more geared towards victory conditions.

These building changes are together in a proposal since I am exchanging some mechanics between them.

Hospital
Current:
+2 Food, +1 Food per 10 pop
7 Maintenance
5% Food to Science conversion
+15 HP Heal
-1 Poverty

Proposed:
+2 Food, +1 Food per 10 pop
7 Maintenance
5% Food to Science conversion
Specialists produce +1 Food
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
+15 HP Heal
-1 Poverty
-2 Urbanization

The Hospital now is mainly built as an expensive healing station. The food yields have marginal impact in the late game and the small science yields are not going to get players to work food tiles. (140 Food for 7 Science is needed to get break even with the maintenance alone, which is excessive at that stage of the game in most cities)
The proposed Hospital now boosts the power of Specialist cities (especially for Industry and Freedom) by allowing them to sustain more Specialists and.get more out of them, this also allows cities that are mostly working less valuable tiles to instead work Specialist slots for more useful yields.

Thematically Hospitals became more widespread to help sustain a ballooning urban population in the 1800s which was prone to diseases and epidemics, so the bonuses are more geared towards urban Specialists.

Medical Lab
Current:
+15% Food kept after Citizen birth
8 Maintenance
+2 pop on build
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
-1 Poverty

Proposed:
+15% Food kept after Citizen birth
8 Maintenance
+2 pop on build
Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
-1 Poverty

The Medical Lab currently provides a respectable amount of yields, but not being victory focused is not great for an Atomic Era building. This rework makes it an instant yield Science Victory Building, granting a science bulb on build (and on picking Order's Resettlement) to push for Spaceship techs, and allowing players to exchange growth and happiness for victory progress.

Some rough calcs for Med Lab costs:
2250 hammers in city with +40% hammers (windmill+train/seaport) -> about 1600 actual hammers -> 400 science from research process equivalent (opportunity cost)

If low on gold also consider having to work wealth to make up for 30 - 50+ turns after building to sci victory (or just sell it ) -> 240 - 400+ process yields equivalent (opportunity cost)

Counting growth in cities with 20 - 25 pop after +2 pop -> need 1000 - 1500 growth (45% carry over from buildings, abt 10+25% growth from happiness bonus and rationalism) -> about 400 - 600 food needed to get citizen birth for 400 science -> about 80% food as extra sci at that size

800 science upfront on build

If you can sustain growth the building will be very good, otherwise it is meh, I think this a good spot to leave it at.


VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 11a
Discussion Thread: (7-11a) Medical Lab Rework Fork
Proposer: @Anarcomu
Sponsor: @Recursive

Proposal Details
Original proposal (medical labs) :

• +15% Food kept after Citizen birth
• 8 Maintenance
• +2 pop on build
• Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth

Proposed :

• +15% Food kept after Citizen birth
• 8 Maintenance
• +2 pop on build
• Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth
• Gain 50 Science per Citizen in the city
• Gain 50 Science on Citizen birth

Host Note: The Hospital change from 7-11 is unchanged if this counterproposed Medical Lab passes.

Rationale :
The OP gives a burst of science in the city it is build in since the +2 Citizen is meant to proc the bonus science on birth. The amount is an immediate +800 Science.
One problem is that settling new cities with low pop gives a strong incentive to stop growth until the lab is built to trigger an absurd amount of Science.
This proposal makes the building agnostic to previously grown pop against newly grown. It also roughly keep the original burst.

 

[pineappledan]

both proposals are listed as proposal 11 in the descriptions. There is no proposal 11a

Voting for both because of the Hospital change. I'm ambivalent about the instant science thing; I just think the 1 per 10 food scaler is too bad to live. No scaler that weak should exist.

 

[Recursive]

both proposals are listed as proposal 11 in the descriptions. There is no proposal 11a

Fixed.

 

[hokath]

Universal Healthcare stocks are rising

 

[AndreyK]

That is too much free science.

 

[azum4roll]

I think the instant Science overlaps with Zoo too much, on a building line that's not about instant yields.

As for Hospital, I think it needs a numbers buff rather than an overhaul. The +1 food per 10 population was a result of attempting to nerf lategame growth, but that's irrelevant now.

 

[Rekk]

@Anarcomu was it intended that your Medical Lab pass if and only if Phosphorator's Hospital passes?

One problem is that settling new cities with low pop gives a strong incentive to stop growth until the lab is built to trigger an absurd amount of Science.

I don't know how you're going to build a medical lab without growing.

 

[Anarcomu]

@Anarcomu was it intended that your Medical Lab pass if and only if Phosphorator's Hospital passes?


I don't know how you're going to build a medical lab without growing.

Investment and Internal TR can do wonders.

Regarding my proposal, yes I was simply proposing what I considered an improvement over the initial proposal. Btw it wouldn't really make sense to keep the original Medical Lab, because the proposal shift their use.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.