[Vote] (7-62) Ottomans Nerf

[pineappledan]

Proposal:
Reduce Ottomans' / on completion of an External TR and / on completion of an Internal TR from 150 to 100

Rationale:
Ottomans have shown very strong results. A nerf to their numbers is in order.

 

[azum4roll]

But a -33% nerf? Do they deserve this?

 

[pineappledan]

Spoiler Yeah, they do :

They are far-and-away the top "aggressive" civ in the game, as defined by having a higher than average war flavour.
They're the only warmonger that cracked top 10, and we both have proposed nerfs for the next best warmonger: Songhai.

Ottoman's main power is the siege foundry anyways.

 

[rkkn]

they aren't really warmongers tho. They are far less spontaneously aggressive than the warmongers.
and if it's data you want, most of Suleiman's wins are not domination, and unlike Askia, most of his non-domination wins are also not pseudo domination. Almost all Songhai wins are either domination or pseudo domination, while almost none of the Ottomans' wins are.

 

[Anarcomu]

most of Suleiman's wins are not domination

If Suleiman is warrant for a nerf, then it looks like a reduction to their economic, TR-based bonus is specifically well-tailored.

 

[pineappledan]

they aren't really warmongers tho.

I have defined my terms in accordance to flavours; refer to the orange bar in the graph. They are certainly less warmonger than Songhai, but still a warmonger.

 

[azum4roll]

Whether a civ goes Authority also affects their warmongerness, if not more than the orange bar. Suleiman is rather mid in aggressiveness, probably why he can complete his trade routes to begin with.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor

 

[Circe]

They're the only warmonger that cracked top 10

Isn't this a good thing? I thought most people considered it a problem that the aggressive AIs fall off so hard late game.
Most Songhai nerf discussion revolves around their mobility which is a migraine to deal with, not their overall performance.
I think a lot of the Ottomans' success stems from them not being a full-blown warmonger, and taking Progress. They're expansionist.

 

[pineappledan]

If a warmonger AI is doing well that means their powerful kit is compensating for an AI personality that by all rights should be preventing them from winning.
In other words, A warmonger AI doing this well shows that you can basically play like an idiot and still win

 

[azum4roll]

Well it's a fact that he isn't a warmonger in practice despite the personality. The point is moot.