[Vote] (7-66) Make Forts Pillageable and the Time to Repair Improvements Stop Scaling With Game Speed

[azum4roll]

In the current espionage system, NP rate and mission cooldowns don't scale with game speed, but either mission cost or mission effect scale for those that matter (e.g. Tech Steal, Gold Steal).
However, there are two missions that pillage improvements with constant cost AND effect, which is fine since these are military related and unit movement/combat doesn't scale.
There is one aspect that was missed in consideration though, and that's the repair time. Currently you can get hit with the same mission again before you can finish repairing every pillaged improvement because it takes a long time in Marathon.

Why should repair time scale with game speed? Unlike the initial improvement which is more economy-aimed, repairing (at least for strategics and fortifications) should be a tactical priority. Your units shouldn't stop healing for an extended period of time in a slower game speed, and the choke point probably won't hold 3x as long without the Citadel.

Proposal part 1:
Repair time (BUILD_REPAIR) doesn't scale with game speed, and is always 3 turns (2 with any work rate booster).

But wait, Forts cannot be pillaged and so you need to spend 3x time to build them again! Well, why were they made unpillageable to begin with? They do have a pillaged state in the database, so it should be possible.

Proposal part 2:
Forts are not instantly destroyed when pillaged.

 

[Rekk]

What does a pillaged fort look like?

 

[Tekamthi]

They do have a pillaged state in the database, so it should be possible

Does this mean there are art files as well? We could add some smoke rising from the fort model but we need specific textures to show the structure all charred, or another 3d model entirely if the walls are smashed up... not sure if these exist.

 

[axatin]

Does this mean there are art files as well? We could add some smoke rising from the fort model but we need specific textures to show the structure all charred, or another 3d model entirely if the walls are smashed up... not sure if these exist.

@azum4roll Can you check?

 

[azum4roll]

Freshly crisped fort

 

[Tekamthi]

Sorry forgot to check back in here -- I went through the relevant archive and indeed forts have a pillaged 3d model and texture, sitting unused, as seen above.

That said I'm not sure having pillaged forts is better or worse. Quicker repair time vs rebuild implies advantage to defender. Human is significantly better fort user than AI so advantage to human defense primarily. But defense is already where human is best!

The proposals have sparked some thought about "what else can be done with forts to make them all around better" but so far I just have some general ideas. Forts were a great deal more important in some contexts irl than they are represented in VP thus far...

 

[Rekk]

why were they made unpillageable to begin with?

Why were they made to be destroyed on pillage?

 

[Tekamthi]

Why were they made to be destroyed on pillage?

I think it was this way in vanilla? And/or I vaguely recall some discussion about AI not being able to effectively evaluate when to remove them in favor of improvement that did yields instead, many many years ago though

 

[azum4roll]

Sorry forgot to check back in here -- I went through the relevant archive and indeed forts have a pillaged 3d model and texture, sitting unused, as seen above.

That said I'm not sure having pillaged forts is better or worse. Quicker repair time vs rebuild implies advantage to defender. Human is significantly better fort user than AI so advantage to human defense primarily. But defense is already where human is best!

The proposals have sparked some thought about "what else can be done with forts to make them all around better" but so far I just have some general ideas. Forts were a great deal more important in some contexts irl than they are represented in VP thus far...

If you have a fort pillaged, you'll need to
1. Take control of the tile again, without the defensive bonus
2. Send a worker and spend 2 turns to repair it (I don't think you can reduce it to 1 turn anymore - maybe with Progress + Terracotta + Iron Fist?), while still controlling the tile

I think at least 2 turns is a reasonable time for this.

 

[Tekamthi]

If you have a fort pillaged, you'll need to
1. Take control of the tile again, without the defensive bonus
2. Send a worker and spend 2 turns to repair it (I don't think you can reduce it to 1 turn anymore), while still controlling the tile

Yeah this is fine. Maybe a compromise implementation would have a fort that's left pillaged for too long disappear eventually, and require the full rebuild.

I wonder how AI workers will prioritize fort repair on the front line in the heat of battle (I'm hoping they make high priority as it will give life to my "supply abstracted healing" project I've been tinkering with, where workers can help healing).

There is a proposal where some units might be able to strike the improvement remotely which would of course change the dynamic considerably, though should wait to see what gets through sponsorship phase before worrying about it

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah this is fine. Maybe a compromise implementation would have a fort that's left pillaged for too long disappear eventually, and require the full rebuild.

nah, there is no reason a fort needs to be a special snowflake.

 

[Tekamthi]

nah, there is no reason a fort needs to be a special snowflake.

Consider that it gives a staged effect for both attacker and defender to fight over, some depth to battle objectives, while maintaining the familiarity of status quo end result: defender has fort as defensive strong point --> attacker breaks through, captures, pillages --> attacker becomes local defender trying to hold pillaged fort long enough for it to disappear --> defender becomes attacker trying to recapture and repair before it's gone.

It's like impromptu "capture and hold point A" type mechanism we see commonly in other games

 

[azum4roll]

AI workers are too scared to repair anything.

 

[hokath]

Yes sir. The Fort-destroying effect is so strange when the Citadel is (obviously) not removed when Pillaged.
Taking control of Fort tiles in the middle of a fight will be quite hard, and we know that from experience with the Citadel.

 

[Tekamthi]

Maybe could give land melee units the ability to repair, but not build, these pillageable forts -- could we prod AI to use it this way? Some kind of logic like, if you're gonna end turn in the plot anyway, and the fort's broken, do repair! even simple logic like this should get them to repair often enough that we can say they're using the feature sufficiently.

If the speculation above is correct, that AI will be too shy to repair with workers during battle despite perhaps recapturing the plot, we are adding on more of these incremental human advantages.

 

[azum4roll]

No, because AI Legions currently don't build roads/forts.

we are adding on more of these incremental human advantages.

Not any more than now. It's too easy to scare AI workers into hiding and halt their rural infrastructure development completely.
That definitely needs to be improved.

 

[jarcast2]

Isn't this proposal more complex than just "Database"?

Forts are not instantly destroyed when pillaged. --> SQL ( DestroyedWhenPillaged set from 1 to 0)

Repair time (BUILD_REPAIR) doesn't scale with game speed, and is always 3 turns (2 with any work rate booster). --> for sure not just SQL

 

[axatin]

Repair time (BUILD_REPAIR) doesn't scale with game speed, and is always 3 turns (2 with any work rate booster). --> for sure not just SQL

You're right of course, that's a DLL change. Label updated.

 

[azum4roll]

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