[DLL] (7-NS) defensive buildings destroyed as corresponding city hp is lost

[Rekk]

Best to limit it from occurring too early, no? Worse to lose walls when they're 40% of city strength than when they're 10%.

Drawbacks to this?

Yeah, now I'm completely off this. You're going further and further into complicated and fiddly mechanics to pursue "realism".

 

[Tekamthi]

Okay, well the draft amendment for castles and walls is still shelved for now. Will let discussion develop, revisit in a day or two. OP proposal could work just needs hp rebalancing. 1.5x just a guess

 

[Legen]

Aye, good point. Only way to handle this I can think of would be to block building of these while under the threshold. Want walls for your city? Can't be a near-ruin, gotta clean things up first... ie heal back up over the 33%. Enemy can keep it below if it wants to block any unintended buffs. Drawbacks to this?

Otherwise this brings me back to perhaps needing to obsolete these things. The instant yields is also a problem. Could just say no yields on these buildings outside of their era+1, but we getting into all kinds of exceptions

Well, that means the city owner can't build Castles. If someone strikes during early Medieval and the city owner was building a Castle, that would have to be halted as soon as the Wall is destroyed, and the city owner can't rebuild the Wall until the siege is dealt with.

Something similar would happen with the Arsenal and Military Base.

 

[Rekk]

Castle doesn't add any HP

So, let's say you take down a Wall. Two turns later, the enemy rebuilds it, adding +125 HP back to the city immediately.

The destruction of defensive buildings could end as an unintended buff to the defender, since rebuilding it could act as a strong heal during a siege.

I didn't think of this; so I would suggest it only applies to buildings that add health, and the building is removed when that health is gone. Isn't this how the other Civ games work?

If you want to apply it to more buildings figure out how to rebalance city health and add health to those buildings too.

Even then, I don't think this fixes Legen's concern.

Edit: Ah, the walls in other games don't provide health, avoiding this issue entirely.

 

[Tekamthi]

I didn't think of this; so I would suggest it only applies to buildings that add health, and the building is removed when that health is gone. Isn't this how the other Civ games work?

Well this is more or less still OP proposal right now, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean -- the past dozen or so posts have been a draft amendment in a different direction, attempting to mitigate identified issues and adapt feedback while still satisfying the fun of blowing things up.

 

[Rekk]

My memory is foggy but I'm pretty sure I was referring to civ 3 in OP, where some units would destroy walls under certain conditions, though I can't recall the details. Civ 3 probably closer to the original proposal on this topic this round

Could you please go refresh your memory on these mechanics in past games and come back and share it with us. My quick search on the internet just came up with Civ 6 walls, that don't give HP.

Well this is more or less still OP proposal right now, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean -- the past dozen or so posts have been a draft amendment in a different direction, attempting to mitigate identified issues and adapt feedback while still satisfying the fun of blowing things up.

Does your OP address Legen's concern about healing the city by rebuilding walls?

 

[CppMaster]

My quick search on the internet just came up with Civ 6 walls, that don't give HP.

Yes, they do. All 4 tiers of walls add 100 HP each and 3 CS.

Ancient Walls (Civ6)

Back to the list of Buildings The Ancient Walls are a basic defensive building in Civilization VI. They are built in the City Center and require Masonry. Effects: Provides Outer Defense for the city and the Encampment (if available) that must be depleted before the city itself is assaulted. +100...

civilization.fandom.com

 

[Rekk]

Yes, they do. All 4 tiers of walls add 100 HP each and 3CS.

is that what Civ 6 calls Outer Defense Strength?

 

[CppMaster]

Yes

 

[Rekk]

Yes

What happens when you rebuild walls while under siege?

 

[CppMaster]

Once damaged, the outer defenses of a City Center or an Encampment will not regenerate on their own. They have to be repaired from the Production queue of the city via the Repair Outer Defenses city project. This project, however, only becomes available once the city has stopped taking damage for three turns. The project repairs both city and Encampment walls over 1-2 turns (depending on how much damage was sustained and how much Production Production the city has), restoring HP and re-enabling Ranged Attacks.

Cannot repair when under attack for 3 turns.

 

[Rekk]

Ah, it's a separate process and a completely different mechanic.

 

[Tekamthi]

Could you please go refresh your memory on these mechanics in past games and come back and share it with us. My quick search on the internet just came up with Civ 6 walls, that don't give HP.

Its bizarre but there's zero info about this mechanism in the top hits on google. Here's one guy's post from early 2000's CF that references it:

Start the bombardment. Use your catapults to bombard the enemy city. This does several things. First, it damages all units in the city. Second, it kill population. Third, it has a chance to destroy improvements.

see https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-to-successfully-lay-siege-to-a-city.8256/

Otherwise certain details available are in short supply, civ 3 was before the trend of documenting how everything worked on the internet, and by the time this developed, there were newer civ games.

I think this is more or less how it worked, or the key differences to 5 anyway: civ 3 walls didn't provide any HP, rather just defensive bonus. And iirc city HP wasn't even a thing back then, it was all about stacks of units. Civ 3 had limited usage of ranged attacks; what they did have was called "bombard" attack and only available to the equivalent of civ 5's siege and air, perhaps a few others but there was no ranged attack for archers, for example -- the division we have now between "melee" and "ranged" was more about offense and defense. Anyway, this bombard ability is where you could knock down some buildings, and walls came first. ie you attack city with walls with bombard unit, that first attack destroys walls. Second bombard attack destroys other buildings on RNG basis. On this latter point I think the initial 7-57 is closer to civ 3 in that you can destroy all kinds of buildings via bombard. My walls and castle draft amendment also brings us a little closer.

Does your OP address Legen's concern about healing the city by rebuilding walls?

In the OP proposal, rebuilding walls will add back the HP that was lost too, as things are currently laid out. As alternative to using the hp threshold to gate reconstruction: perhaps just a cooldown, after building is destroyed, cannot be rebuilt for 10 turns.

 

[azum4roll]

Apply economic pressure to a city, even if you peace out before killing it, by forcing them to rebuild defensive buildings

Already exists as burning tiles

Make capturing a city easier in multiple waves of pressure; right now breaking 33% HP and backing off doesn't really net you anything, and if you aren't blockading the city it just regenerates by the time you regroup

My proposal adds war score and war weariness for any damage done to a city.

A thematic component where war causes buildings to blow up

One that you won't notice unless there's some animated visual effect.

As a kid did you ever kick over a sandcastle or a snowman or smash a jack-o'-lantern? We wouldn't do this as adults, of course

[/URL], but remember how satisfying that moment was?

I would never do that.

 

[Tekamthi]

My proposal adds war score and war weariness for any damage done to a city.

In theory all the 7-57's could be passed without conflicting, couldn't they? Yours is good, certainly -- but no blowing things up there.

I would never do that.

Of course not, me neither

 

[azum4roll]

We don't need to blow things up to do damage. Warring is just a means to get benefits, which the better peace deal should cover if you don't want to capture cities.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.