9x4=36, and 12x3=36 ...WRONG !

[Neomega]

There obviously is some kind of large tech bonus.

Because when palying epic speed, first techs cost around 172, and even in a city with only 1 trade, form the city itself, it only takes 25 or so turns to research a first tech.

 

[ainwood]

It might be a simple case of the tech research rate not updating as you change the commerce.

 

[angeleyes]

For everybody who wants to react on this thread please first try this:

.

For example: you begin the game as Inca (free tech mysticism), found a city,
and put your first citizin on a tile with no commerce, then you make 8 (palace)
plus 1 (centre) = 9 beakers. You choose Polytheisme as your first tech, and
enter (next turn). Then you will always see (no matter wich difficulty level or
map size) that you have actualy put 12 beakers into Polytheisme.

Asperge

(science = 100%)

Does anybody find something different ?

The game gives you beakers for free without explicitly mention it, and that
frustrates the mind of them who wants to play accuretely.

Asperge

 

[kryszcztov]

It might be a simple case of the tech research rate not updating as you change the commerce.

It's not a simple case, it has 'spoiled' my whole game so far as well. And no, it's not that, as I have explained long and large in my link(s). The game tells you that you'll get 9 beakers, and the next thing you know, you get 12 beakers. As far as I know, 9 isn't equal to 12, and nowhere is there an explanation for that (I admit, I haven't read the manual to every bit, and not read all the Civilopedia entries). I have posted this concern at RBCiv, and even Sirian hasn't given me a satisfactory answer so far (check my link). If the ingame calculations are correct though, then the game displays science very badly, and that should need to be reworked (as well as many little things, but that's off-topic).

 

[angeleyes]

(....)The game tells you that you'll get 9 beakers, and the next thing you know, you get 12 beakers.(....)the game displays science very badly, and that should need to be reworked.(....)

I shall explain as clearly as possible why according to Civ4-designers
4x9 = not 3x12

1. in my game Monotheisme costs .... 179,
2. i already put in ............................132,
3. i need ........................................47,
4. during the game i was not aware of 1., 2. and 3., i only paid attention to the # of turns the science-slider gave,
5. my only city makes 9 beakers, and tech-slider shows 4 turns,
6. i want to found judaism, so decide to speed up research and am able
to add 3 more beakers ....WRONG!,
7. tech-slider still shows 4 turns ....,
8. i thought what 9 beakers can do in 4 turns, 12 can do in 3, .... WRONG!,
9. a mysterious thing adds every turn 3 beakers (in this case) to your
science input ....,
10. (9 beakers + 3 mysterious) x 4 turns = 48 beakers,
(12beakers + 3 mysterious) x 3 turns = 45 beakers,
and i needed 47.

Conclusion:

If you want to understand the game, you have to understand the special
civ4-mathematics, that goes as follows:

1x9=12
2x9=24
3x9=36
4x9=48
5x9=60
6x9=72
7x9=84
8x9=96
9x9=108
10x9=120

Every morning at the office Sid shout it out loudly and the programmers repeat.

Asperge

 

[Renata]

Well, it's either a bug (in which case I do hope it'll be fixed eventually) or an undocumented feature (in which case they'd certainly better reveal the details to us obsessives eventually, or we'll revolt. Do not mess with the micromanagers!!)

 

[Guagle]

@Asperge & Kryszsztof: What's the difficulty level in your game? IIRC lower difficulty settings give you a bonus to research and production. That could be the explanation for the mysterious extra beakers.

 

[angeleyes]

@Asperge & Kryszsztof: What's the difficulty level in your game? IIRC lower difficulty settings give you a bonus to research and production. That could be the explanation for the mysterious extra beakers.

Why don't you try it yourself ? Takes only a few minutes. At Deity you pay
almost twice as much as at Settler-difficulty ( just looked for polytheism
as inca), but both get 3 beakers extra. Makes no sense at all.

I think i'm becoming banker or something like that. Nobody except a few
seems to care about their money.: .... .... ....

Asperge

 

[akots]

Well, it's either a bug (in which case I do hope it'll be fixed eventually) or an undocumented feature (in which case they'd certainly better reveal the details to us obsessives eventually, or we'll revolt. Do not mess with the micromanagers!!)

Well, that is certainly true. And the players are only starting to analyze the game. If it is true now when only the surface had been scratched, just imagining what can be behind it makes it even more horrifying.

 

[microbe]

An unbelievable bug. I feel cheated. They've gone great length to discourage MM.

 

[kryszcztov]

An unbelievable bug. I feel cheated. They've gone great length to discourage MM.

Is that sarcasm ???

I'd say the opposite. If it is buggy, it encourages me to babysit my cities even more.

 

[angeleyes]

(...)If it is buggy, (...)

I can't believe it's a bug. It's too simple. You remember in Civ3 you got
extra shields when your city grew ...? That wasn't a bug and it was
compete nonsense too. But i do know they love to manipulate you
and treat you like little children, don't know why ..............

Asperge

 

[kryszcztov]

I can't believe it's a bug. It's too simple. You remember in Civ3 you got
extra shields when your city grew ...? That wasn't a bug and it was
compete nonsense too. But i do know they love to manipulate you
and treat you like little children, don't know why ..............

Asperge

No it wasn't complete nonsense, in fact I (and all the guys into micromanagement) made a pretty good job of predicting that in general. It's just that the new citizen was immediately put to work, netting you extra shields (not gold, since it comes before city's growth in Civ3). I'm glad this was removed in Civ4 though, since it wasn't right and too complicated for nothing.

 

[angeleyes]

No it wasn't complete nonsense (....) since it wasn't right and too complicated for nothing.

This sounds not very convincing ...

It was nonsense because the new coming citizen immediately had to work
without being feeded .... the bastards ! Why did they put this in the game ??
I always felt like a bad mayor ...

Asperge

 

[Requies]

I have to go back to school .

With 9 beakers i can get monotheisme in 4, so if i add 3 beakers i should get it in 3. WRONG ! Can anyone explain this ....

This is because of the way tech points are handled in cIV.

Basically, you're not generating ONLY 9 beakers a turn even if your ONLY city is....

I'm basically working on figuring out all the nuances of technology and research, but I've only gotten so far....

But basically, you were generating about 12-13 beakers with that 9 beaker city whereas with the 12 beaker city you were only getting about 15-16. As we known 13*4 = 52 > 48 = 16*3.

So, the math works out. Your problem was assuming that the 9 beakers translated directly into 9 total beakers research.

I'll come out with something soon about how your total beakers generated by the city becomes your total research points (even, though it's taking a longer time than I expected because it's a real biatch to test).

Req

 

[angeleyes]

(....) So, the math works out. Your problem was assuming that the 9 beakers translated directly into 9 total beakers research. (....)Req

So if somebody tells you he's gonna buy 4 times 9 apples and that that
makes 48 apples you think his math is right, don't you think he's an ass....
because he does not tell you everything.

You probably did not read the whole thread, i already solved some things
but thanks

I am not really interested in the math behind the hidden extra's, i think
they should be clear and open with it and not play games with me !

Asperge

 

[Requies]

So if somebody tells you he's gonna buy 4 times 9 apples and that that
makes 48 apples you think his math is right, don't you think he's an ass....
because he does not tell you everything.

You probably did not read the whole thread, i already solved some things
but thanks

I am not really interested in the math behind the hidden extra's, i think
they should be clear and open with it and not play games with me !

Asperge

Ah, nope, I didn't notice that, my apologies. But the mathematics are not that mysterious . I'll hopefully get a post up soon about how to calculate Tech points. And actually, the 12 and 15 points you posted makes a LOT of sense if you know the general formula (part of which I do ).

Req

 

[KrikkitTwo]

@Asperge & Kryszsztof: What's the difficulty level in your game? IIRC lower difficulty settings give you a bonus to research and production. That could be the explanation for the mysterious extra beakers.

AFAIK, you don't get research amd production bonuses, you get Discounts on the cost of buildings, units, and techs.


Agree that they REALLY need to reveal all those maths. (so that somewhere you see those extra 3 beakers being added and know why)

 

[Requies]

AFAIK, you don't get research amd production bonuses, you get Discounts on the cost of buildings, units, and techs.


Agree that they REALLY need to reveal all those maths. (so that somewhere you see those extra 3 beakers being added and know why)

This will be explained in my article. I've finished up a lot of the testing (still need to get up to 18 civs ). BTW, you're right in that difficulty level only affects the tech COSTS.

You're also right in that it would have been helpful to know where the extra beakers are coming from, but that's why you have people like me .

Req

 

[Achorrath]

This caught my interest, so I did some experiments tonight. Here is what I concluded:

1) You get 1 beaker for existing. This is added to the research generated by your cities and is not affected by the research slider.

2) Your civilization gets a research bonus for knowing the technology(s) leading up to the tech you are researching. If you know the minimum requirements, you get a 20% bonus. For each additional requirement, you get an additional 20% bonus.

Take the Indian civilization, for example. They know mining and mysticism. Say they've founded a city where there citizen can work on a floodplain, so they generate 10 commerce a turn (8 palace, 1 city square, 1 floodplain). The research slider is set to 100%.

If they want to research Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, or Hunting (No requirements), they will generate 11 = 10+1 beakers a turn.

If they research Bronze Working, Polytheism, or Meditation (One requirement each), they will generate 13 = (10+1)*1.2 beakers a turn.

If they research Masonry (Both optional requirements met), they will generate 15 = (10+1)*1.4 beakers a turn.

These research bonuses appear to be independent of civilization, leader, and difficulty.