A Beginner's Guide to the Specialist Economy (SE)

This guide is definitely incomplete without a link to the games played by Unconquered_Sun...Justinian University (IIRC) and BOTM 10 (definitely). It's one thing to talk about the short-term benefits of specs over cottages. It's completely another to have tanks by 1300 AD without pyramids or any material amount of cottages...
 
I wonder... would there be enough demand for a SE game series? I'd like to become good at this strategy, because then I'd be able to best play as one of my two favourite leaders, Pericles. :) But in many games I make a mistake here or there and I usually get discouraged when the research rate is far lower than the one I'd have in a cottage game, so playing the same map along with others going for a SE would definitely help me. :D

And other than that, thank you for the links! :D Example games are always good.
 
I especially enjoyed the, "You didn't build worker first? I would have thought that was a noob mistake!" ;)
 
CivilizTiger said:
I wonder... would there be enough demand for a SE game series? I'd like to become good at this strategy, because then I'd be able to best play as one of my two favourite leaders, Pericles. But in many games I make a mistake here or there and I usually get discouraged when the research rate is far lower than the one I'd have in a cottage game, so playing the same map along with others going for a SE would definitely help me.

Based on the number of "xxx Club" games in the Strat forum, I'd say almost certainly "yes". :) Try starting up a thread there, and see what happens.

CivilizedTiger said:
And other than that, thank you for the links! Example games are always good

NP. I spent some time last night (re)reading them as well. Highly enjoyable (and educational) reads.

Wodan said:
I especially enjoyed the, "You didn't build worker first? I would have thought that was a noob mistake!"

:lol: There's a lot of "out of the box" thinking in US's Deity University thread. When I saw how far his first two settlers went.....wow.
 
I'd join for a game of such a series. Maybe set a certain point up to which we play - say, getting to Military Science and making lots of Cuirassiers ;) - to compare different approaches, and check the map to make sure it's somehow usable for a SE (enough food).


I'd love to play as Gandhi, but any Philosophical leader would be good really.
 
Ok, somebody help me out here. I can't seem to figure out how an SE can work without pyramids. My problem is primarily that early game, before monarchy, I am severely happiness limited. 5 in my capital, 4 elsewhere. So, I build two grassland farms in secondary cities and run 2 scientist when at max pop for a grand total of 6 beakers, and 6 GP points. I can use slavery to whip out buildings and troops when I need to and quickly grow back. Or I can build 4 cottages and whip back down every 10 turns or build them on plains to limit my growth. My capitol is food rich and I make it my GP factory in a cottage economy. After 10 turns, I am bringing in 8 commerce at max pop from my non-capitol cities and this only grows with time. If I am financial, that is 4 more, and if the squares are river-side I get an additional 2 over the SE because I am working two more of the river squares. With the SE, even if you have a philosophical leader, you are not getting anything over 6 beakers

Early game GP points are very powerful. You get about 5 beakers to the GP point if you lightbulb IF you get a GP from them. But each GP costs more GP points and the benefits of the GPs don't scale linearly with the GP points required to make them. My problem is that most of these cities are never going to produce a GP. I have GP points saved up from all these different cities that are basically wasted. The way I see it, GP points are valuable in the city with National EPIC and lots of food but basically worthless in all the others. On immortal difficulty, I successfully ran an SE with pyramids early using Frederick. By the time any city other than my capitol started getting GPs, it was late game and they were not worth much...paying 6000 GP points for +1500 tech is not worth much. And you have to wait for those GP points you invested in 3000 BC to actually produce a great person in 1440 AD because that is when it finally catches up to your capitol which has National Epic and lots of food.

Without the GP points, the specialists in your satellite cities are far less valuable than simple cottages. So it seems to make more sense to build a SE in your capitol and cottage your satellites, but this doesn't work so well with beuarocracy later on. So maybe cottage your capitol and make your first settler go to a good location for specialist production. Then cottage everything else. If you build GPs everywhere, you will still only get GPs wherever you built the national epic in the early game, and late game, the specialists will be far less valuable and you have to wait a damn long time to reap the benefits of those GP points you invested in 3000BC.

I can't seem to get past 1000 BC running a SE on diety. This is simply because I get my great scientists at the same rate as with the cottage economy (early game, i.e. just the ones from my capitol), but I don't have nearly as many beakers and gold because 6 beakers <<14 commerce. By 1000 BC, I am so far behind on tech that I can't trade my way back in. They have every tech I can research.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I can't get this to work at ALL without pyramids. Even if I have happy resources, I simply don't have the beakers to keep up with a cottage economy or the diety AI.
 
Ok, somebody help me out here. I can't seem to figure out how an SE can work without pyramids.
Misc thoughts.
  • Trying to get Pyramids and failing is not bad. You get an excellent rate of return from the :gold: payoff, which you can use to run deficit research.
  • When you lightbulb a tech, critical points are to set up the tech you lightbulb by researching prerequisite techs in time, and then to trade the new tech to multiple AIs.
  • Tech path (order you choose to research) is kind of critical. You should not research techs in the same order that you do when you're running a CE.
  • City placement is different than a CE. Fresh water is important and food resources even more important.
  • The city governor by default will try to work mines. You don't necessarily want cities to do that, and you probably need to go into each city and manually adjust quite often. If you have the latest patch I think if you set it to emphasize food that'll do the trick, but verify.
  • Don't make stuff in cities that you don't need. For example, try a game making a Library in each city and that's it. It's tempting to make other stuff but until you do without it's easy to give into the temptation. See how the without works and in future games you will be better able to decide what each city really has to have. (And, in case it's not obvious, your city should be making Research after it's done with the library.)
  • Sounds like you need to recognize the difference between a serial SE and a parallel SE. Much of the techniques you mention are correct, and they are leading you in the direction of a serial SE. That is: One GP farm with NE in it, all other cities are either production cities or are cottage cities. However, that doesn't mean a parallel SE isn't possible. See below.
  • Perhaps you should experiment and polish your strategy on less than Deity. ;) Once you have it perfected, then go back up in level.

Parallel SE notes.
  • NE is not your friend in a parallel SE. Use the hammers you would have spent on it, on something else.
  • A parallel SE also can benefit (but does not have to have) from a single cottage city, usually the capitol running Bureaucracy (though a production city in the capitol with Bureaucracy is good as well).
  • Doing a SE->CE conversion is sometimes a good strategy. As each city creates a great scientist, "turn off" that city by sending in the workers en masse and cottaging the farms. This is especially powerful if you time it such that you're doing the conversion after you get Emancipation.
 
I dont know what this is, but what it ISNT is "a beginner's guide". It doesnt explain anything, i have no idea what i'm supposed to get out of this "guide".
 
So I'm just not getting anywhere with the SE. I make food heavy cities focus on specialists. I have the pyramids, Parthenon, great library, and angkor wat (and this is on Immortal, I'm really lucky to have gotten all of those.) But after education my tech stagnates and the AI outtechs me so far that I can't even manipulate tech trading to keep up. This has been happening for the past few games and I am losing every time.

I just don't really get when I should say "Oh, this situation would be great for specialists." or "Ah, this city would be perfect to have 8 scientists." How do I decide when not to drop cottages in every single town, and rely on specialists instead?
 
So I'm just not getting anywhere with the SE. I make food heavy cities focus on specialists. I have the pyramids, Parthenon, great library, and angkor wat (and this is on Immortal, I'm really lucky to have gotten all of those.) But after education my tech stagnates and the AI outtechs me so far that I can't even manipulate tech trading to keep up. This has been happening for the past few games and I am losing every time.

I just don't really get when I should say "Oh, this situation would be great for specialists." or "Ah, this city would be perfect to have 8 scientists." How do I decide when not to drop cottages in every single town, and rely on specialists instead?

I would suspect, that if you have all those wonders on immortal, you have sacrificed something else, perhaps to few cities?
Try to go down to monarchs, and play a game without building a single wonder, and see how it feels.
 
So I'm just not getting anywhere with the SE. I make food heavy cities focus on specialists. I have the pyramids, Parthenon, great library, and angkor wat (and this is on Immortal, I'm really lucky to have gotten all of those.) But after education my tech stagnates and the AI outtechs me so far that I can't even manipulate tech trading to keep up. This has been happening for the past few games and I am losing every time.

I just don't really get when I should say "Oh, this situation would be great for specialists." or "Ah, this city would be perfect to have 8 scientists." How do I decide when not to drop cottages in every single town, and rely on specialists instead?

Short answer: Get to Biology. It makes farms (the backbone of the SE) 2x as good.

Also: One of the main advantages of the SE is your ability to whip infrastructure, but also to specialize infrastructure. If you're going for a beakers-based SE, most cities should entirely skip the gold multipliers. That lets you run more scientists or build more troops. For me, the main advantage of SE isn't that it researches faster (it doesn't), it's that you get a stronger military. (Plus, it lets you run Vassalage for most of the game, which also gives a stronger military).

Long answer: Post a game and people will give you tips. Well, guess that was pretty short, but once you do it, it will become the long answer.
 
An alternative: Utilize the power of the beakers from an SE to fund a slider-based EE, popping Gspys to build Scotland Yards. Maybe? lol I just love the EE.
 
I would suspect, that if you have all those wonders on immortal, you have sacrificed something else, perhaps to few cities?
Try to go down to monarchs, and play a game without building a single wonder, and see how it feels.

I have 22 cities. I'm not too worried about losing, but I still want to figure out the specialist economy. Other than that, this immortal game is going unusually well.
 
IMO the SE is supposed to get you to the midgame-ish (education or shortly after) with a good lead, at which point you either make an army and capitulate people until you win, or you switch to cottages (sped up with emancipation).
 
So I'm just not getting anywhere with the SE. I make food heavy cities focus on specialists. I have the pyramids, Parthenon, great library, and angkor wat (and this is on Immortal, I'm really lucky to have gotten all of those.) But after education my tech stagnates and the AI outtechs me so far that I can't even manipulate tech trading to keep up. This has been happening for the past few games and I am losing every time.

I just don't really get when I should say "Oh, this situation would be great for specialists." or "Ah, this city would be perfect to have 8 scientists." How do I decide when not to drop cottages in every single town, and rely on specialists instead?

Some questions:
-- are you running Representation?
-- what do you do with your great people?
-- what do you use for gold income?
-- what kind of specialists are you running?
-- what's the order of your first 20 techs?
 
I don't see how you would use beakers to fund an EE...


What I mean is, when you run a SE, you don't need to use the science slider. Instead, you can crank up the espionage slider and steal the techs you avoid while beelining more important things.
 
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