A better Poll! unit per tile?

[SerriaFox]

I was just wondering

 

[ohioastronomy]

There have been some good discussions on other threads. In particular, there are many, many alternatives (including the ones used before Civ 4) which don't suffer from the problems induced by no stacking. And there are a lot of other games with good examples of working systems.

Polls here seem to be a way of marshaling support, and my scientist side is pretty skeptical of their statistical virtues.

 

[SerriaFox]

Yeh there is a definite lack of science in any online poll

 

[lschnarch]

I voted for "4" units, as the socalled 1upt does not work and has already been proven not to do by the designers themselves.

Actually, I think a limited stack with a max size of something between 10 and 25 units (exact numbers to be determined by playtesting) would be the best solution (with either a zoomed in combat screen [my preferred solution] or the stacks fighting as a whole against each other)

 

[Teodosio]

1upt works great in many games, you can try a good A.I. on the opensource game "Battle for Wesnoth".
Firaxis screwed seriously with the military A.I., we should keep good pressure on them to improve it in a patch!

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

AI is capable of handling it. I have seen it. Now if only they fix the ciV AI.

 

[Ogrelord]

1UPT.

Great General should be able to "form" an army.

current skirmish army

HEX E: scout
HEX S: archer
HEX D: spearman
HEX W: Great General
HEX Q: warrior

Great General with ability to stack 3 units.

HEX E: GG+scout+archer+spearman
HEX S: warrior

 

[JLoZeppeli]

1upt works great in many games, you can try a good A.I. on the opensource game "Battle for Wesnoth".
Firaxis screwed seriously with the military A.I., we should keep good pressure on them to improve it in a patch!

It'sa a pity that tactical games with 1UPT have another scale... But i understand the ignorance about map scaling....

I prefer army from Call to Power, maybe using the Great General to form it...

 

[Teodosio]

It'sa a pity that tactical games with 1UPT have another scale... But i understand the ignorance about map scaling....

I have heard the debate about map scale but I think it's misleading.
Maps are very similar in Civ5 and Wesnoth for example. There is a similar amount of mountains, water, impassable tiles, choke points.
Sure, a map section represents few kilometers in Wesnoth while it represents hundreds of kilometers in Civ5. But is there really a difference in gameplay? It's just that there are too many cities around? It doesn't sound a big issue to me...

I prefer army from Call to Power, maybe using the Great General to form it...

The combat system in CtP was intriguing but it missed something: ranged attacks. Now, in Civ5 I just love to bombard enemy positions with aircraft and most of all with warships. With CtP cambat this would not be possible any more. I am not interested in bombarding a stack, I want to strike a precise point in the enemy line in order to open a gap there.

 

[shadowplay]

Unlimited stack, with penalties.

 

[Conspirator]

Yeah where's the option for unlimited stacking but more penalties to all units when attacking, like collateral damage from Civ 4 siege units.

 

[duxup]

Yeh there is a definite lack of science in any online poll

Unless it reflects someone's opinion, then it is a clear mandate by the users about how EVERYONE feels

 

[JLoZeppeli]

I have heard the debate about map scale but I think it's misleading.
Maps are very similar in Civ5 and Wesnoth for example. There is a similar amount of mountains, water, impassable tiles, choke points.
Sure, a map section represents few kilometers in Wesnoth while it represents hundreds of kilometers in Civ5. But is there really a difference in gameplay? It's just that there are too many cities around? It doesn't sound a big issue to me...

The combat system in CtP was intriguing but it missed something: ranged attacks. Now, in Civ5 I just love to bombard enemy positions with aircraft and most of all with warships. With CtP cambat this would not be possible any more. I am not interested in bombarding a stack, I want to strike a precise point in the enemy line in order to open a gap there.

Yes indeed it is. It's named geographic coerence. In Panzer General map scale you don't have a muntain in the middle of nowhere, not Arborea cities or something that could happen in a world map scale (where a single muntain tile represent a muntainchain...).
So is much different to handle and rest assured dude, i play a lot of hex pc games like TOAW.... Your fault is that: you think it is more tactical, but only because you haven't so much experience of hex wargaming... If you wanto to play on a world scale stacking is a rule that every game, from boardgames like Axis&Allies to PC games as Herat of Irons, has, handled better or not (CIV IV stack of doom was an example of bad stacking, where Call to Power was an example of good stacking). If you add ranged attack to Call to power combat system, your issue is resolved as mine with the idiotic 1UPT that only who hasn't any experience of hex game could approve for civ....

Look at this and tell me the difference dude...

 

[Teodosio]

If you wanto to play on a world scale stacking is a rule that every game, from boardgames like Axis&Allies to PC games as Herat of Irons, has, handled better or not (CIV IV stack of doom was an example of bad stacking, where Call to Power was an example of good stacking).

I respectfully disagree
Hearts of Iron manages stacks quite well but that is a real-time system, it cannot really be compared to Civ. If you port the HoI good stacks system in Civ you just get the Stack of Doom.

If you add ranged attack to Call to power combat system, your issue is resolved as mine with the idiotic 1UPT that only who hasn't any experience of hex game could approve for civ....

You cannot add ranged combat to CtP cambat system... unless you only use ranged attacks against stacks (see my previous post).

Look at this and tell me the difference dude...

To tell the truth... I see cities 5-6 hexes apart... plains... forests patches... sparse mountains... it reminds me of Civ5 strategic view!

P.S. Anyway I am going to try TOAW3 to compare the different systems.

 

[JLoZeppeli]

What you don't see, is the big stack of units per tile, present in a strategic game like this too(with a huge map, the cities you can see, are like more little towns, the distance between them is not big). But as often, you fail again...


Panzer general have a scenarios maps, very little territory involved like this

as you can see a single mountain occupies a lot of hexes... So 1UPT was OK.

Bigger scale, more stack necessary... It's the law of hexes, breaking the law is unbalancing...

I hope you can understand, if not, you are not understanding hex gaming...

And yes, if you add ranged attack to CTP system, the basic is the option of ranged attack if in the army are ranged units... Against the whole enemy stack of course.

PS and using Panzer General as the base is beyond stupidity, as a game from 1995, when the hex gaming has evolved too (as you can see from TOAW or other modern products) If they had used TOAW as base for combat i did not complain for....

 

[Teodosio]

Bigger scale, more stack necessary... It's the law of hexes, breaking the law is unbalancing...

I am following your comments with much interest but there's a thing that it's not clear to me indeed.
Why do you say that more stacks are necessary with bigger scale? Is it just a question of realism or what else?
I.e. what I cannot understand is what changes, for a gameplay point of view, if one hex represents tens of meters or tens of kilometers. In the two screenshots you provided the only noticeable difference in the maps is the presence/absence of cities... am I missing something?
I think this is the main point of the discussion.

 

[SerriaFox]

I think a problem with a comparison to the battle of wesnoth is speed, in that game units have allot of movement point giving the a large of choice about where to move to, in civ even with two movement point you only have 6 tiles to choose from before your moving sideways.

 

[JLoZeppeli]

Sometimes i'm a little harsh to people that not understand hex gaming... I'm sorry.

The problem is about manouvering and scaling, obviously it's a matter of realism too.

When you play battallion scenario (Panzer General like). You are moving approssimatively 600 to 1000 soldiers (it depends on the type of battallion).

So the movements have a wider range to cover the 1UPT limit and the position of units is more important in the blitz run than in the long term... Panzer General was a blitz game, because was a battallion operetional level hex game...

Civ V is not a battallion game, the map is awfully little for that and you have few movement points, a muntain is not passable and is only an hex as well others things as forest... Yes you can have multiple forest hexes, but in reality they represent a different forest from each other, as you can see.. In Panzer general a forest is a multi hex entity...you can avoid it, you can use it, but ti is a choice that i could take, not an obligation. In Civ is an obligation the most. You can't avoid the forests or the hills, because of the scale.

Think of the times when you have only two tiles as a path and you can't pass as a formation, it's awfull... You don't have this problem in PG, maybe in a very rare scenario...

So when the scale is bigger, the only way to avoid these problems is the stack... TOAW uses stack (when you are using a corps scale it's a very little stack, the game is way more flexible than others) and is one of the better hex game on PC... But it is a tactical stack, no as CIV IV. It simulates the presence on the hex\territory, of multiple forces... with indipendent functions...

It's a little too complex for Civ gamers, so i think a compromise is better than nothing, but PG was the worst choice Firaxis could make...

My personal solution? A tactical (with ranged attacks included if untis are in the army) stack army leaded by Great Generals and more movement also between units (in particular on roads) and a stack with neutral\allied forces... It is the maximum we can add to Civ V, making it worth to be called tactical...

 

[MaximusDarcy]

Haven't read the multitude of comments so sorry if i repeat anything -

I would suggest a 2 unit per tile based on the type for example...

I think 1 unit of the same type, i.e Melee should be allowed with +1 unit of supporting type, i.e Catapult