A Closer Look at Poland and Faith Economies

[MarigoldRan]

Why play Poland? Well, first Jadwiga is awfully cute- probably the cutest leader in the game- so there's that. Cleopatra, Gilgamesh, or Gitarja might arguably be hotter, but Jadwiga is definitely the cutest. But that's for another thread.

Main economic bonus: Holy Site gets +1 district adjacency bonus instead of the standard 0.5.

This bears mentioning. Normally, no one builds Holy Sites unless you're Arabia or Russia with the right Pantheon because any location where you could place a Holy Site (next to Mountains, for example) would be better served with a Campus. Placing a generic Holy Site next to your city and another district generates only a meagre +1 Faith from adjacency, which is kinda crappy.

Poland's a bit different. With your average start, you're pretty much guaranteed a +3 Faith adjacency bonus from your Holy Site from districts and a random mountain or forest. With the +100% Holy Site adjacency card, that means each Holy Site is generating +6 faith from adjacency alone. That's substantial. Why?

1. Each point of Faith is equivalent to 2.3 points of Gold. A Hussar for example costs 1500 gold on epic to buy, but only 730 faith (650 with Theocracy). That means a Holy Site generating +6 faith is equivalent to a commerce district generating +13 gold/turn. This is some powerful stuff. Polish holy sites are the faith equivalent of German Hansas. Polish Holy Sites are worth building even if you aren't gunning for a religion.

2. With a religion and choral music, each Holy Site with a Shrine and Temple is generating an extra +6 faith and +6 culture, meaning that with a religion you don't need to waste your time with theatre squares or amphitheaters. Shrines and Temples are a substantial investment in the early game, which is why as Poland it's a good idea to use Gold to buy Shrines instead of monuments. But once you get them up they provide a TON of faith production and culture. A Holy Site with a Shrine and Temple is generating 12 faith, and 6 culture once you factor in the Adjacency Bonuses and Choral Music. And 12 faith is equivalent to 30 gold/turn. The extra culture is just pudding on the cake.

3. Golden Ages are better for Poland than for anyone else because of their powerful faith generating buildings. Monumentality means you can buy settlers and builders (cheaply) with Faith, which means that as Poland you don't need to build a builder or settler once you Golden Age. A good strategy with Poland is to get a Classical Dark Age (pretty easy to do with Poland), and then explode in the Medieval era with a Heroic Age, grabbing both Monumentality and +1 Culture/District bonus. Faith buying settlers is INSANELY powerful because settlers are CHEAP when bought with Faith. It also means your settlers cost 0 population as long as you buy it from the city with Magnus. This means your cities can do other things like building Temples and military units.

4. Finally, there's Hussars. But that's for a different thread about military. Hussars aren't the best UU in the game as they come pretty late, but they synergize well with Poland's core strengths (culture and faith) and the unit itself is decent.

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Point is: Poland is strong economically even without the Hussar. With their faith economy, they have the best Golden Age in the game, and their Holy Sites are INSANE- arguably the second best district in the game, just below the Hansa. Also, I haven't even talked about the Sukiennice (marketplace replacement), which is definitely one of the better UBs in the game, providing an extra +4 gold or +2 production on top of the usual Marketplace bonus. Also, culture bombing with Encampments is pretty useful for getting that resource tile or forest 3 tiles away. Both of these minor economic bonuses are decent, too.

The downside of Poland? They're weak early game, especially if you're trying to set up a faith economy. They need room and time to expand, which means Poland is better on maps with more land area. Like Germany, they're primarily a mid-game civ, except they're more fragile in the early game as they lack the extra military card and have to spend resources on Astrology and Holy Districts instead of Archery and Slingers.

This means that on crowded maps on high difficulty settings like Deity, Poland suffers as faith doesn't really kick in until the midgame and Poland's early game bonuses are marginal. But if they're given time and space to expand, and a Medieval Golden Age (for faith buying settlers and builders), they're the strongest civ in the game.

 

[Ferocitus]

Why play Poland? Well, first Jadwiga is awfully cute- probably the cutest leader in the game-
This means that on crowded maps on high difficulty settings like Deity, Poland suffers as faith doesn't really kick in until the midgame and Poland's early game bonuses are marginal. But if they're given time and space to expand, and a Medieval Golden Age (for faith buying settlers and builders), they're the strongest civ in the game.

Not on the maps I play. On the largest Terra maps with 20+ civs, 37 CS, and plenty of room for each civ, Poland struggles.
In the several hundreds of games I have played at King, Emperor and Deity, they have never been a threat as AI.
I have also played them quite often, and the reason to play is (a) to try all civs (b) as a challenge for the very fact that they aren't top tier.

Oh, and Jadwiga looks like someone smacked her across the bridge of the nose with a 2x4. Probably one of the Lithuanian princesses with a grudge.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Then you're playing them wrong. Golden Age + Monumentality is Poland's shtick. Everything else (including Choral Music) is just pudding on the cake.

Have you tried a faith-based economy with monumentality that can faith buy settlers at -30% cost (even better with Theocracy) and use the +free builder yupon settling city government plaza and +2 builder charge card?

It snowballs on the larger maps with room to expand. You must be trolling or trying to play Poland as a standard civ (and building useless districts like campuses or something) and doing it wrong.

 

[Sostratus]

Also, I haven't even talked about the Sukiennice (marketplace replacement), which is definitely one of the better UBs in the game, providing an extra +4 gold or +2 production on top of the usual Marketplace bonus

This is very underrated. If you only run domestic routes this is like getting triangular trade for free, basically. And it may get affected by GS' upcoming trade route efficiency gold bonus, so railroads+poland = 8 extra gpt for domestic routes. The 2 hammers for foreign routes is also killer.

Faith buying settlers is INSANELY powerful because settlers are CHEAP when bought with Faith.

Almost any faith civ can and should be leveraging this ability. Faith buying domestic units is just so insanely good. 1) prices are cheap 2) faith, unlike hammers, can be transferred from on city to another because it's stockpiled at the empire level. The flexibility gains from this are hard to overstate. Imagine if e.g. Canada's ability was that they could send 100% of a city's production to another city. This would be decried as the most OP thing ever. 3) faith is absurdly easy to amass because unlike gold, nothing costs faith maintenance. And theocracy synergizes with all of this.

Finally, there's Hussars. ... and the unit itself is decent.

In case readers aren't aware, the Winged Hussar is a renaissance era knight: 55 strength / 250 prod cost (same as a pike & shot unit) but has the higher movement (4) and that sweet knockback ability. Picking up something like rout basically guarantees they will hit muskets hard enough to trigger it. And, vitally, they unlock with a late medieval civic, so you can sing that choral music in your holy sites until thy prayers are answered. If going religious, Works great with Crusade.

Poland may not be on the power level of sumer or aussies but they (and faith economies) are much better than people think.

 

[Weraptor]

How are Polish holy sites better than Lavras?

 

[MarigoldRan]

+1 Adjacency bonus to districts instead of 0.5, meaning that they're always effective no matter the location. With the Holy Site adjacency card, that doubles the bonus.

Lavras are cheaper, though, which is their primary benefit.

 

[Weraptor]

Yep, and one that surpasses even Poland's.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Lavras are definitely better in the early game, but Polish Holy Sites are better by mid-game, which fits the theme of Poland (mid game powerhouse).

Again, by mid game Poland's other econ bonuses are simply better than Russia.

 

[Weraptor]

Maybe, but by the mid-game Russia snowballs over Poland

 

[MarigoldRan]

Depends on the map. If you have room to expand it doesn't really matter.

And if you're really interested in early game snowballs, just play Nubia or Aztecs or Scythia, which snowballs better than Russia.

There's also the minor point that as Russia you start every game next to Tundra. Poland's start bias, on the other hand, is oftentimes close or next to a jungle, for some odd reason. If you get Sacred Path (+1 adjacency for jungles), the Holy Sites get disgustingly good (+6 adjacency, which doubles to +12 with the Holy Site card).

 

[UWHabs]

I do think faith is an underrated currency. Even in my current game as the Cree, I started literally next to one of the lake holy sites, so ended up building holy sites in my first 2 cities at +4 adjacency each. I didn't found a religion, and even without running the double-adjacency card too much, just getting +8 faith per from the holy sites are nice, never mind when you later get some shrines and temples. Between Monumentality golden age, faith-buying troops in the 2nd tier government district, or using faith to buy great people, having a robust faith economy is strong for anyone. I even got screwed in my game because I ended up 1 point shy of a golden age once too, which sucked.

Now, again, this depends on the land. I wouldn't have built those holy sites without starting next to the lake, but if you can get a strong holy site, they can be quite powerful.

Now, I definitely wouldn't declare Poland's holy sites as the 2nd best district in the game, for the simple fact that Japan's are clearly better, being both half price and having the same adjacency bonus advantage. Russia's Lavras as well, especially since Russia has a more clear path to Dance of the Aurora, triggering some insane tundra holy sites there. And if you count what buildings go in, then Arabia as well obviously has a better holy site too, as could Norway as well. Khmer holy sites are also quite nice, especially when paired with holy sites getting +1 amenity from rivers. But I definitely do agree that sometimes holy sites are useful to build even without spending effort on religion.

 

[Ziad]

I absolutely love just how versatile Faith is in civ6

 

[Lord Lakely]

How are Polish holy sites better than Lavras?

They aren't, at all. Lavra's generate GWAM points and are critical in the TWO victory types Russia excels at. Poland get... maybe the third best generic Holy Sites in the game. Japan has the best generic Holy Site because of their consistent +1 from Meiji Restoration and get them cheaper, followed by Australia who love putting them down (Holy Sites generate appeal, after all). You also have to take into account Khmer, who can support a Holy Site in every city without any major downsides (with the food and housing, as well as the boosts from having an Aqueduct, Khmer cities WILL be at least 3 pop ahead of a generic city, but only if that city has a Holy Site). Poland's faith Eco ranks on par with that, it's a consistent bonus (better than that of Amazon and Great Nusantara in most circumstances) and gives Poland a lot of options they can play with.

Poland's strength to me doesn't lie in their religion game however, but in their adaptability. Tried a religion but failed? You can still use your faith eco to patronage great people, buy units with the Grand Master's Chapel, or Civilians if in a Golden Age of Monumentality, which Poland can do more easily because of their consistent faith gain. Not your style? You can still transition into a trade game with the Sukunniece boosting your production, which is handly for Science Victory. Need cultural support? The Wild Card slot has got you covered, fam. Enemies at your doorstep? Your bonus encourages you to build forts and Encampments, which will help against foreign invaders.

Poland's bonuses are hard to rate because they're all over the place, but that's the point. They are the ultimate Jack of All Trades, master of none civ. They're always one step at each victory type than a generic civ (a civ which doesn't get bonuses) is, but always two steps behind civs specialized in a certain victory type (such as Khmer for Culture and Scotland for Science)

 

[Disgustipated]

And soon we will have Polish rock bands flood the world. I wonder what Polish rock sounds like? I don't think I have ever heard of a song from over there.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Unlike Japan, Poland doesn't need Campuses because of their UU, which saves up production for other things like Holy Sites and Sukiennes.

 

[Sostratus]

Poland's strength to me doesn't lie in their religion game however, but in their adaptability.

It's definitely this. In civ5 they were the most OP civ because they were so flexible with absurd levels of free social policies.
You get:
-Trade route bonuses
-The military-> wildcard bonus (extremely, extremely good)
-Innate culture bomb: great for dealing with nosy neighbors/snagging clutch tiles from CS. The fact that this works with forts is just awesome since you won't waste a district slot.
-Handy heavy cav UU that upgrades to tank, in GS probably Cuirassier (you can always keep building knights, but sometimes that 55str is just too good to pass up.)

Then for religion there's holy site adj and the relic thing no one cares about. Flexible plus a way to get extra faith. Other civs are much more faith oriented. Hell, the only reason people talk about russia and not arabia in this thread is because russia has the amazing ability to pivot to culture while arabia is pure religion + mamluks.
"Flexible plus" Civs usually take the day unless they have such a strong savant like focus in their area. Cough, korea. Rome, germany, australia, are all flexible civs and usually top ranked by many. And its hard to tout a standalone faith eco without people going towards religious victory discussions- you can just leverage GMC/Theocracy/monumentality to turn faith into victory fuel for anything. Lets not forget Jesuit education exists too.

 

[Icicle]

Good thread makes me want to give Poland a shot!

Everything else (including Choral Music) is just pudding on the cake.

Why are you putting pudding on cake though?

 

[Archon_Wing]

But isn't the bonus just a worse version of Japan's? It's not really that much better than Australia or Brazil either. Also, it's not the same as gold as currency because the use is limited until Theocracy or if you pick up some nice beliefs. But I guess you acknowledged their early game isn't that good.

Also in reality you're really just getting +2 and need something else. Not chopping a forest means lost production and that still costs something. And if you have mountains Australia will probably already get it to charming.

IMO if you want faith based, Indosesia's probably the best bet, with their good chance of getting one of the faith pantheons and also more general adjacency bonuses.

Not on the maps I play. On the largest Terra maps with 20+ civs, 37 CS, and plenty of room for each civ, Poland struggles.
In the several hundreds of games I have played at King, Emperor and Deity, they have never been a threat as AI.

> Judges a civ by perform[ance of the AI on maps it wasn't designed for
> Judges a civ by performance of the AI , especially on difficulties where it gets bonuses and thus balance is distorted.
> Judges a civ by the performance of the AI at all.

I have also played them quite often, and the reason to play is (a) to try all civs (b) as a challenge for the very fact that they aren't top tier.

Based on what though?

 

[Ziad]

Poland's bonuses are hard to rate because they're all over the place, but that's the point. They are the ultimate Jack of All Trades, master of none civ. They're always one step at each victory type than a generic civ (a civ which doesn't get bonuses) is, but always two steps behind civs specialized in a certain victory type (such as Khmer for Culture and Scotland for Science)

When taken in isolation, this may be true. In practice, it's not that simple. Bonuses aren't just meant to be stacked. They need support. Khmer can quickly win a culture victory with proper religious gameplay, but that leaves them vulnerable to assault as they would be both weaker in science and military.

Complementary gameplay is just as valid and strong as supplementary gameplay. Poland can crush both Khmer and Scotland if it uses its other benefits to complement its chosen victory.

Also, it's not the same as gold as currency because the use is limited until Theocracy or if you pick up some nice beliefs.

Someone who intends to use faith as a currency would most likely have picked up some nice beliefs.

 

[Lord Lakely]

When taken in isolation, this may be true. In practice, it's not that simple. Bonuses aren't just meant to be stacked. They need support. Khmer can quickly win a culture victory with proper religious gameplay, but that leaves them vulnerable to assault as they would be both weaker in science and military.

That's true, but that doesn't invalidate the inherent quality of the bonuses themselves. You have to strategize to avoid the weak points of your strategy (in Khmer's case, this is invasion, in Poland's case it's always being behind at least one other player). Poland's best bet, for me at least, is to either REX if you play on a larger map size, or to go aggressive early on a smaller map, to carve yourself out a power base you can then use to achieve the victory type that you like. But the same principle is true to every other civ. (Hence why Civs with bonuses towards rapid expansion or warfare are generally the best in the game.)