A couple of gameplay questions

[Maksim]

I loaded up MOO over the weekend on a whim, and got stuck in it. Now, I've never been that good a player (usual tactic is to just tech away and then overwhelm the opposition) but this time I decided to play on Hard... then wimped out and played the Psilons.

First game, everything goes well, I do the early expansion phase well, grab a couple of artifacts planets. Then the Galaxy Council meets up, and suddenly Bulrathi rule the galaxy and I'm in the final war.

Now, the situation is quite dire but I did get Planetary Shields V and some rockets, so theoretically I could just build some missile bases and turtle, right? Or is this pretty much game over?

I know this is a rather vague question, so let's rephrase it - when can a human expect to survive the Final War? What needs to be researched and built and how would you play it?

---

So I leave the first game with full intention of coming back to it, and start again. This time, I get another lucky draw, get a quarter of the galaxy to myself - and then Alkari declare war. Now, they've got a sizeable fleet of mostly fighters (although they do have a dozen death spore bombers, which is bad news, since I don't have anti-toxin yet).

I design some ships, send them out and get my ass handed to me. The reason is, despite being Psions, I have no Battle Computers in my tech tree. And Alkari have defenses out of the wazoo - well, around six. So my state of the art ships can't hit them!

What are my options here? I can trade with Meklars for Battle Computers 3, but how much help would it be? I don't have any beam weapons that halve the shield value but I'm researching some (although they will take a long time to research). Should I be building lots of small throwaway fighters instead of capital ships?

Or should I just ignore the silly birds and continue to tech up?

Thanks.

 

[vmxa]

Final War is winnable, it depends on your holdings at the time. The best thing is to attach a save from the game and we can download it and take a look.

 

[LEit]

You can win the Final War, I've done it several times on Impossible. However, you can also lose it...

When it first starts, every race trades all tech, however, they still have their old planet shields and ships, so if you're behind in tech, you need to invade ASAP. The other option may be spying on several non-Darlok races if your computer tech isn't too far behind.

Turtling is not a good option in the final war, they've got several races so they'll eventually get tech and ships to crack your shields, you need to be able to take a world of theirs every so often with invasions to keep up in tech (maybe a Darlok could do it by spying). Since you've got less then 1/3rd of the total population (and presumably production) you're not going to out research them even as the Psilons.

If you can't take one of their planets every few turns (even if you can't hold it), then you probably can't win.

For the other game:
Trade for BC3, you should trade for computer tech whenever you can, it controls spying (both offensive and defensive), so it has use even if you don't need the specific tech (which you do in this case). BC III would cancel the Alkari defensive bonus, so your ships would hit as well as a ship without a computer would hit any other race. It could also open up the tech tree and let you research BC IV perhaps.

Alkari like smaller ships which have a good defensive bonus, that stacks with their racial bonus, however, there isn't much room for shields, so you probably don't need a shield halving weapon. A multi shot (Gatling or Auto blaster), or Graviton beam, scatter pack missiles, or the megabolt cannon, would all do well against small stacks of ships. If you can get a pulsar special, that can wipe out several stacks of small ships no matter how many ships are in the stack.

There are lots of advantages to small ships, they're the cheapest way to get a gun up in space, and they have a nice defensive bonus. They don't have room for some of the nice things like shields, computers, and some specials, and, even minor damage will kill ships (vs huge ships that can take 1000 points and not lose any firepower), so later on they lose their power.

 

[Maksim]

You can win the Final War, I've done it several times on Impossible. However, you can also lose it...

When it first starts, every race trades all tech, however, they still have their old planet shields and ships, so if you're behind in tech, you need to invade ASAP. The other option may be spying on several non-Darlok races if your computer tech isn't too far behind.

Turtling is not a good option in the final war, they've got several races so they'll eventually get tech and ships to crack your shields, you need to be able to take a world of theirs every so often with invasions to keep up in tech (maybe a Darlok could do it by spying). Since you've got less then 1/3rd of the total population (and presumably production) you're not going to out research them even as the Psilons.

If you can't take one of their planets every few turns (even if you can't hold it), then you probably can't win.

Cool. Looks like I should try and play some more to get some feel for how to invade planets, and then come back to this one.

For the other game:
Trade for BC3, you should trade for computer tech whenever you can, it controls spying (both offensive and defensive), so it has use even if you don't need the specific tech (which you do in this case). BC III would cancel the Alkari defensive bonus, so your ships would hit as well as a ship without a computer would hit any other race. It could also open up the tech tree and let you research BC IV perhaps.

Alkari like smaller ships which have a good defensive bonus, that stacks with their racial bonus, however, there isn't much room for shields, so you probably don't need a shield halving weapon. A multi shot (Gatling or Auto blaster), or Graviton beam, scatter pack missiles, or the megabolt cannon, would all do well against small stacks of ships. If you can get a pulsar special, that can wipe out several stacks of small ships no matter how many ships are in the stack.

There are lots of advantages to small ships, they're the cheapest way to get a gun up in space, and they have a nice defensive bonus. They don't have room for some of the nice things like shields, computers, and some specials, and, even minor damage will kill ships (vs huge ships that can take 1000 points and not lose any firepower), so later on they lose their power.

So, I should trade for some computer techs, pick up a multi-shot weapon, and get some small fighters of my own? OK, I'll try that idea.

Thanks!

 

[Zed-F]

Nitpick - small ships never lose their power. Not when they can get next to your planet in one move and drop a load of neutronium bombs, thereby disintegrating your planetary defenses before they can land a shot.

 

[vmxa]

As was mentioned, you cannot sit on your hands and win. It could be done if you had a big tech lead already.

What was said is correct, you will see them get fast moving ships or start using torps. Even if you have classs XX shields, plasma torps will bust them.

If you are at lower shields levels, they can get space porters and dump medium ships next to and hit and run away from your slow missiles.

I would try to smash a planet or three and maybe invade to get tech. If you cannot hold, no problem. They get it back and you repeat.

 

[Maksim]

So, I left the Final War game for the time being, and concentrated on the second one, where the Alkari have been harassing me.

I got a Mk 3 computer and designed a new ship. Fortunately, I had one big advantage over the birds - warp speed. I had fusion drives whilst they didn't seem to have nuclear engines yet. So they were stuck crawling from one of their worlds to another, while I had my pick of where to attack them.

First, though, they launched an attack on an outlying fertile world that was built up quite well - in the five turns it took them to get there, I got twenty bases up and running from five I had previously. With support from some medium ships I was able to make their forces retreat.

I built a few Larges with automated repair system and some defense, and sent them to a couple of their worlds that didn't have a large fleet in orbit. One of the two was an outlying world that it would take them five turns to get to - in the meantime, it took my ships 2 turns to get there, and another two for the transports. Needless to say, by the time their ships got there, their colony was mine (no tech, unfortunately!)

On the other front, another two of my Larges took out the defenses over Altair, and I had some troops enroute. It was going to be 40 of my troops against 30 of theirs (same gropo tech), and at the same time as my people were going to arrive, an Alkari transport was also headed that way. I figured it would get shot down by my ships parked in the orbit.

However, for some reason, their transports were able to land successfully (why?), and with 60 to 40, they killed all my troops. I reloaded and just bombed the planet into oblivion instead.

Back to the first planet, the Alkari fleet had a couple of Large ships which were roughly equal to mine but were intent to get close to my new colony. Once they got there, they dropped lots of death spores, and that was the end of those brave Psilons.

So, I came to the conclusion that while I was able to do some damage to the Alkari, taking and holding their planets was counterproductive - the resources were better spent elsewhere. OTOH, they did not seem to be going for any of my planets anymore, so I decided to give up and ignore them.

What I realised only later is that these two planets became a magnet for all the other aliens to fight over. I started in the south-west corner and have drawn a galaxy of Xenophobic Alkari (a three planet empire in the middle of the galaxy), Xenophobic Melkar (a five planet empire on my right flank, underneath the Alkari), Erratic Sakkra in the northwest, Xenophobic Darlok in the north-east and Erratic Bulrathi in the south-east.

With easy access to these planets, the entire galaxy went to war, leaving me to tech in realtive peace. I had some trading and non-aggression pacts with Sakkra and Bulrathi, whilst the Darloks kept popping in and out of my range, as they kept taking and losing a planet on the edge of my sensor range.

Fifty years down the line, pretty much everyone other than me is at war with three other civilizations, whilst I've got Improved Robotic Controls V, Advanced Eco Restoration and IT +40. An unwise choice by Sakkra led them to declare war on me, which I took as an opportunity to conquer an irradiated rich world in my back lines. It had lots of factories, and I must have got about six new technologies, including Soil Enrichment.

So, at this point, it's just a matter of building up a late game fleet. I've tried my hand at a couple of Huge designs, but I'm not sure what to look for besides "guns, lots of guns". Any suggestions?

 

[vmxa]

You do not get to shot down incoming transports to their world, you hav e to be in control of it first. I would suggest you not send such a close call. IOW if they are on par with your land techs, send more like 2 to 1.

You want to have pop left after the battle anyway, so why try to go cheap?

 

[Zed-F]

Huge ships like auto-repair since they have the base hitpoints to be able to regenerate lots per turn. If you go this route you'll want the best shields you have and decent maneuver as well. High Energy Focus is always nice as well. Otherwise, depends on what your opponents are fielding.

By now you ought to be able to make a good small bomber. Strap on a decent computer and a good bomb, and the best engines you've got, build a couple-few hundred of them, and go to town.

One good way to design is to look at the empire you're planning to target via spies, look for any tech holes they have (are they missing good missiles? good shields? good computers?), and try to design ships to take advantage of that weakness.

 

[Maksim]

You do not get to shot down incoming transports to their world, you hav e to be in control of it first. I would suggest you not send such a close call. IOW if they are on par with your land techs, send more like 2 to 1.

You want to have pop left after the battle anyway, so why try to go cheap?

Fair enough, if this works both ways. I presume that if I'm sending transports to my own world that has enemy ships in orbit, they won't shoot me down, as well?

Huge ships like auto-repair since they have the base hitpoints to be able to regenerate lots per turn. If you go this route you'll want the best shields you have and decent maneuver as well. High Energy Focus is always nice as well. Otherwise, depends on what your opponents are fielding.

By now you ought to be able to make a good small bomber. Strap on a decent computer and a good bomb, and the best engines you've got, build a couple-few hundred of them, and go to town.

When you say a bomber, you mean a ship with a fusion bomb? This will take care of planet missile bases, but other than that, they'd be absolutely useless, right?

One good way to design is to look at the empire you're planning to target via spies, look for any tech holes they have (are they missing good missiles? good shields? good computers?), and try to design ships to take advantage of that weakness.

So what should I do if they are missing these things? If they don't have computers or missiles, does it mean I shouldn't bother with extra defenses? And if they don't have shields, don't bother using weapons that halve those?

 

[Zed-F]

Fair enough, if this works both ways. I presume that if I'm sending transports to my own world that has enemy ships in orbit, they won't shoot me down, as well?

I'm pretty sure they will. I've had it happen.

When you say a bomber, you mean a ship with a fusion bomb? This will take care of planet missile bases, but other than that, they'd be absolutely useless, right?

More-or-less, but bombs are by far the easiest way to take down planetary defenses until very late in the game. Moreover, if you bomb out all the missile bases on an enemy planet, sometimes their fleet will ph34r your bomber-ness and flee, even though your bombers can't actually hurt their ships. This only works on the turn you kill their missile bases, mind.

So what should I do if they are missing these things? If they don't have computers or missiles, does it mean I shouldn't bother with extra defenses? And if they don't have shields, don't bother using weapons that halve those?

Think about what their missile bases are likely to be able to do and how you can work around it. If they have good computers but lousy missiles, if you build ships with high shielding, enemy missile bases might as well be firing blanks. If they have good missiles but lousy computers, then they can't hit the broad side of a barn, so you want to go for high maneuver to further emphasize that weakness. If they have bad shields, then you know you might be able to break their bases with your own missiles and beams even if your own bombs are less than wonderful, or that you might be able to get away with using obsolete bomb technology. If they have high ECM, then you know you're going to need the best possible computers for your own missile boats and bombers to score many hits. If they have antidote, then bringing spores will not help much. If they have big missiles and good computers, but no scatterpacks, then they still might not be able to take out a large swarm of small ships before those small ships can bomb out the bases. If they have scatterpacks and decent computers, bringing small ships might not work so well.

There are far too many possibilities to list them all. You just have to consider how combat resolution works, and think about what tools you have available as compared with where the enemy is weak.

 

[vmxa]

Yup they will shoot yours down, not sure why this work that way, probably a bug.