A much more alive CIV!

[Aramda Master]

The Civ world is finally coming alive! CIV 3's world was kinda of dead no life. Think about the modding ablites we will get with get with this game.

Who plans to mod CIV 4?

 

[Communisto]

i plan to download the mods you guys make

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

By alive do you mean fully animated graphics? Notice now that graphics modding of new resources, buildings, cities, terrains, etc (not only units) will only be able to be done by the few but talented people that are 3D artists over on creation and customization. That's why I think putting Civ into a 3D environment is bad, and that's strike 1,450 against this game.

Modding graphics, ect is one of the things that I like about Civ. In Civ 2 and Civ 3 I made my own flags as leaderheads, resources, cities, terrains, etc... and it was fun. However, I have no 3D animation programs or 3D talent, so I won't be able to do this in Civ 4. The 4th installment doesn't let me do what I could with the 3rd installment. To make matters worse, at least from the current screenshots, Civ 4 will need A LOT of modding to make its graphics look good.

Fully animated graphics = less moddibility = LAME.

 

[oldStatesman]

By alive do you mean fully animated graphics? Notice now that graphics modding of new resources, buildings, cities, terrains, etc (not only units) will only be able to be done by the few but talented people that are 3D artists over on creation and customization. That's why I think putting Civ into a 3D environment is bad, and that's strike 1,450 against this game.

Modding graphics, ect is one of the things that I like about Civ. In Civ 2 and Civ 3 I made my own flags as leaderheads, resources, cities, terrains, etc... and it was fun. However, I have no 3D animation programs or 3D talent, so I won't be able to do this in Civ 4. The 4th installment doesn't let me do what I could with the 3rd installment. To make matters worse, at least from the current screenshots, Civ 4 will need A LOT of modding to make its graphics look good.

Fully animated graphics = less moddibility = LAME.

And if it's anything like modding in say "The Sims" be prepared to have a lot of extra disk space.

 

[alco75]

However, I have no 3D animation programs or 3D talent, so I won't be able to do this in Civ 4. The 4th installment doesn't let me do what I could with the 3rd installment. <snip> Fully animated graphics = less moddibility = LAME.

Absolute rubbish. By the same argument we would dismiss new advances in (say) physics if the required maths became too demanding for some.

 

[Reinhard]

Besides, most of the unit graphics modding done for Civ3 today is in 3D and the models can be used in cIV as they are.

 

[Ramalhão]

By alive do you mean fully animated graphics? Notice now that graphics modding of new resources, buildings, cities, terrains, etc (not only units) will only be able to be done by the few but talented people that are 3D artists over on creation and customization. That's why I think putting Civ into a 3D environment is bad, and that's strike 1,450 against this game.

There are some modders here who made several units for Civ3 (and its expansion packs) using 3D models and then taking its images in several sides to create units. For these modders, the second part (convert 3D to 2D) is not need anymore. So, it will be easier for these modders.

There is several other games who use 3D graphics and there are so many mods for these games, so there aren't "few 3D artists". If there are so many people doing mods for several games, most of them without the same reputation as Civilization series, why should Civ4 have less modders?

Modding graphics, ect is one of the things that I like about Civ. In Civ 2 and Civ 3 I made my own flags as leaderheads, resources, cities, terrains, etc... and it was fun. However, I have no 3D animation programs or 3D talent, so I won't be able to do this in Civ 4. The 4th installment doesn't let me do what I could with the 3rd installment. To make matters worse, at least from the current screenshots, Civ 4 will need A LOT of modding to make its graphics look good.

Just because you don't know 3D it doesn't mean that you can't do anything. Here is a link for a thread in Warcraft 3 forum. Contain hundreds of links for good tutorials and sources for several programs. Look there and maybe you'll learn something about 3D. There are free programs where you can use to create 3D graphics, too. Maybe you'll find one of them there .

Don't worry about modding, as the game will not be released soon. So, you'll have time to learn XML, Python and 3D graphics. I think civ community should make "modding teams", where each one is specialized in one of these items. There are some modders who only create units, some who only make general graphics (terrain, resources, buildings etc) and some who get everything already made and create scenarios.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

Absolute rubbish. By the same argument we would dismiss new advances in (say) physics if the required maths became too demanding for some.

Apples and oranges.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

There are some modders here who made several units for Civ3 (and its expansion packs) using 3D models and then taking its images in several sides to create units. For these modders, the second part (convert 3D to 2D) is not need anymore. So, it will be easier for these modders.

There is several other games who use 3D graphics and there are so many mods for these games, so there aren't "few 3D artists". If there are so many people doing mods for several games, most of them without the same reputation as Civilization series, why should Civ4 have less modders?


Just because you don't know 3D it doesn't mean that you can't do anything. Here is a link for a thread in Warcraft 3 forum. Contain hundreds of links for good tutorials and sources for several programs. Look there and maybe you'll learn something about 3D. There are free programs where you can use to create 3D graphics, too. Maybe you'll find one of them there .

Don't worry about modding, as the game will not be released soon. So, you'll have time to learn XML, Python and 3D graphics. I think civ community should make "modding teams", where each one is specialized in one of these items. There are some modders who only create units, some who only make general graphics (terrain, resources, buildings etc) and some who get everything already made and create scenarios.

I rather they just stuck to the K.I.S.S. principle: Keep it simple stupid.

Now modding graphics will take longer than ever before! Rendering times, model building, buying the software to do 3D, convincing "modding teams" to make your idea.

Edit: BTW, those that used to do city graphics and resources (like me) won't be able to it anymore without the proper 3D animation training and equipment.

 

[troytheface]

i have noticed that most of the complaints about civ 4 come from modders.
Some of them read like they think they are some kind of elite breed or something- time moves on- only a small fraction of people use mods or mod-
but i agree with the original post - Life! one of the biggest gripes i had was how lifeless things were- hail to three d!

 

[Paasky]

Now modding graphics will take longer than ever before! Rendering times, model building, buying the software to do 3D, convincing "modding teams" to make your idea.

Edit: BTW, those that used to do city graphics and resources (like me) won't be able to it anymore without the proper 3D animation training and equipment.

If by "training" you mean reading a few tutorials and by "buying the software" you mean the cost of keeping an internet connection to download the free tools available you're right. If not, you're wrong. It isn't hard, when you get the hang of it. I for one can't do my Brig into an unit because I don't know how to make pretty explosions or stuff. If those things come embedded in cIV, I'll be able to make my own units *yay!*

Making city graphics or resources couldn't be simpler: Get a free model from the net and then convert/resize it. Tadaa! Your done!

 

[Louis XXIV]

I personally think you can't underestimate the willpower of Civilization fans. I think the move to 3D will slow unit making early on, but things will eventually catch up. I think a bigger obstacle might be the change in style, which means anything currently made would look funny in Civ4. But I think style and technology is stuff that gets overcome. Look at the units have been comming out for Civ3. I think they've gotten progessively better overall and Civ4 will as well.

 

[tcjsavannah]

If the only reason you're buying a game is for mods, go build your own damn game.

 

[Commander Bello]

In case I might be wrong, I would like to express my apologies even before starting.

Nevertheless, from all posters in this thread so far, I only recall the name of the arbitrary guy, so for the moment I have the impression that he might be the one with the most knowledge about what he is talking about.
Although units may have been originally in 3D already for Civ3 before "downgrading" them to some kind of 2D, there have been many other graphics available - from borders (which are the only one of the things to mention here which won't be hard to do for a 3D engine) to new terrain to sometimes stunning buildings. For these things I would assume that the effort in future will have to be higher, as now you have to really create everything in 3D.
And, to be honest, the current battle scenes in no way are thrilling. In fact, I assume that it will become even harder to construct the battle scenes for units in the future, as they have to partially move into the opponent's tile....
Furthermore, 3D will require much more computing power if everything "is alive". This will add with the computing of the basic game routines, so we should be prepared to face the same "inter-turn" delays as we already have to mourn about nowadays.
I cannot see this to be an improvement.

Nevertheless, I will admit that it reads better on the box:"Now with a NEW 3D engine, making your world live!" - But once again, this will not make for more depth of the game.

 

[Paasky]

I for one think it will require less from the computer. Well, from mine at least...
I've got 800MHz P3, 360mb SDRAM & 64mb GF4MX. For some reason, civ3 actually is laggy ! I don't know why, but that's how it is. But, when I play Pirates! (which has the same 3d engine as cIV) I put the graphics at about medium and resolution to 1024x768 and it doesn't lag at all!
So, adding together the goodness of the 3d engine and that the code is now much more refined, I think that cIV will play almost as well or, in some cases, better than civ3. Especially in large maps.

Most artwork that's been done for civ3, be it units or tech icons, are mostly done with some 3d program and rendered. For the unit battles, they could simply be turned off (as I have done to lower game times by at least 20%).
You might have a point with the unit movements though, but let's hope that the cIV dev. team have made up an easy way to handle it

 

[Xen]

I've heard mind you I only heard that somehow 3D games use soem sort of premade "skeleton" for animations, and then apply a "skin" to it; if this is the case, then, if we have access ot the skeletons, indipendent from thier attached skins, you could make all sorts of new looking units, but with the animations of the reguler units; somthign that wont bother too many people, IMO, at all.

 

[Paasky]

And with modern units (tanks, aircraft, ships) you don't need almost any moving parts. Unlike Foot units which need legs and arms.

 

[Commander Bello]

And with modern units (tanks, aircraft, ships) you don't need almost any moving parts. Unlike Foot units which need legs and arms.

And what about waving flags on the ships, their sails, moving turrets of tanks and battleships, moving propellers of early airplanes, not to mention the different manouvers one could like to see from airplanes?

 

[Paasky]

And what about waving flags on the ships, their sails, moving turrets of tanks and battleships, moving propellers of early airplanes, not to mention the different manouvers one could like to see from airplanes?

Hopefully those things can be calculated by the engine. Although those same things were done to civ3 units.

As you said, the modders will adapt.

 

[Ramalhão]

I think some people are worrying about multiple units. As I could see in released videos, there's no need to make multiple units, only one.

The game itself will put how many units are necessary. In battles, the game will move all units to their positions, will choose a target to be hit first and when this target dies, the game will choose the next target. Also, there may be 2 or 3 animations for attack, and some units will be delayed, so you'll see one unit striking when another unit is moving his sword yet. This will avoid all units doing exactly the same movement at one time.

When someone create a new unit, usually uses an existing unit as template. There are several types of weapons, some of them have similar movements: warriors using big axes and warhammers need to use both hands and make almost similar movement. So, to create a warrior using a warhammer you should use an axeman as template. Modders already did it when in Civ3, 2D.

As Xen wrote above, there are "skeletons" for animations. You set some parts of the body as foot, knee, hand, head etc. If you didn't alter any size (it's really not necessary), most movements will be the same as those already existing.

And as I wrote before, there are some modders who already uses 3D models to create units. Some unit templates are already done and avaiable in internet, no need to recreate the wheel. There's a lot of 3D art for several planes, ships and tanks, so if you want a F-14 unit and an existing 3D model is avaiable for use, just use it (but don't forget to write from where it was taken).

I'm almost sure that modders who used 3D models to create units for Civ3 made backups copies, for later use. Maybe several units may appear some weeks after Civ4 release. Modders will need some time to see which format to use for Civ4, how to animate these units, how to "paint" (skin) them and finally how to use new units in editor.