A Nahua Geek's Issues With The Civ 5 "Aztec" Civilization

[KIEJ.MANIK]

KIEJ.MANIK, I agree with you on the Jaguar. The Mexica arrived pretty late in Mesoamerica's scene, and the jaguar should be a medieval/Renaissance Era unit, technically. The fact that it's so weak early game is rather insulting too.

Out of curiosity, can you speak/translate Nahuatl? There's a lot of stuff in Montezuma's Civ V speech that still hasn't been translated, and I was wondering if you could provide that for a Language thread (marked with a star, it's a topic in this forum).

Probably not, many dialects in nahuatl are not mutually intelligible since they became sort of isolated from eachother

 

[KIEJ.MANIK]

I agree with you on the Jaguar's position (the Aztecs were consider a medieval civ, after all).
My major pet peeve, though, is the city names.
I've counted several civs in there:
Mexica (of course, they should be there)
Tarascans (rivaled with the Mexica)
Atzcopalcans (sp.) (Mexica lived under their rule prior to Tenochtitlan)
Tlaxcalans (Not only were they enemies, they were allied with the Spanish. The 6,000 warriors they gave to the spanish probably did a good deal of damage to the Mexica, too.)
Teotihuacan (What the heck? Wrong time, wrong civ.. They have more in common with the Mayans, and should probably be a CS)

I understand what they did with Denmark and Polynesia, but it not only was unnecessary, but illogical when it came to the Aztecs.

By the way, what does your signature say?

Well when they say Aztec that usually refers to the whole Central Mexico area, not just the Mexihca

My signature says, quite literally

"My name is Tlaneloli'
and "I prefer I die fighting on my feet, better not I live on my knees"

 

[KIEJ.MANIK]

I am a bit of a "Nahua geek" myself, but the bulk of my studies of America are more centered toward the Maya. That aside, I really want to agree with a change in the jaguar warrior as far as game play goes. They are really nothing special, especially post patches. The game is not designed in any way in which a warrior class unit is effective in any way other than to support archers. Warrior class is just to weak against much stronger starting cities. This is really evident at longer speeds, which I love to play. When I roll Aztecs, I will usually build a jaguar instead of a scout, but that is the extent of the use of this unit. I seriously doubt anyone builds many warriors, even jaguars on standard speed game-play. Most games I never build more than one, if that. Archers are the rulers of this era.

Calmecac instead of Floating Gardens? My argument is going to be a bit weak because it is still map and tile specific but instead of, or better, in addition to lakes, I would like to see a start bias toward marshes and have a bonus to them, at the very least, when worked, they are able to substitute for a lake, fulfilling the requirement for floating gardens. and in the later eras fulfilling the requirement for being camped by a river.

Sacrificial Captives? Not sure what I would change with this. My first thought would be some sort of advantage, probably cultural with puppeted cities. This was their true strength.


Last Note, Where is my Mayan CIV!

Maybe something called "Tonatiuhcah" (People Of The Sun) that would give culture for killing enemy units AND something else that's not too big , trying to add something to it to even it out while not making it overpowered, I want it to keep that culture bonus but I just want something else to go with it due to what everyone gets when adopting honor

And they got a pretty good modded mayan civ

 

[TheLastDays]

I understand what they did with Denmark and Polynesia, but it not only was unnecessary, but illogical when it came to the Aztecs.

Now, I'd like to hear why it's such a big deal when done to the Aztecs and at the same time it's ok that the Danish build norwegian cities.

just to add to that last post, at least half of the civilizations in the game have a different name for themselves than the ones in english and most of them would just confuse tons of people.

Exactly. You'd have to rename all the civs..

 

[Babri]

I scarcely think being wiped out in the stone age by a higher-difficulty AI with a ridiculous number of souped-up warriors is the satisfying tactical AI everyone's been after.

Lol ! I am sure that slighlty strong warrior won't be undefeatable.

 

[Babri]

Babri:

Well, I for one, build Jaguars because they're more expedient for hunting down and killing Barbarian units for that sweet, sweet culture boost. And they're cheap, too. In a recent Aztec game, I built 8 Jaguars for just this purpose, for garrison, and to use for later. Never had to build any other mainline units - I just upgraded my 8 Jaguar through the centuries, and they kicked major butt.

Woodsman, vampiric jungle specialist Infantry are awesome.

Yeah but they really can't go & kill a nearby civ unfortunately. That is why I said I only build them so that my future swords would get those promos. About barb killing, I'll try that too. Hopefully it won't hurt economy.

 

[CivOasis]

Now, I'd like to hear why it's such a big deal when done to the Aztecs and at the same time it's ok that the Danish build norwegian cities.

I originally was annoyed with that, too, until I realised:
1) Didn't Denmark, at one point in its history, rule over the other Scandinavian countries?
2) Despite what the DLC's title is, if you go into the Advanced Setup screen, they're actually listed as the Scandinavians, not the Danes. Personal preference, I guess.

When I think of the Aztecs, though, I see a difference between Aztecs and Aztec Empire (Which I would consider just the Mexica triple alliance)

Just my logic, everyone's entitled to agree or disagree.

 

[Roxlimn]

Babri:

Honor Aztecs get alerted to the presence of Barb camps, and you get +12 (!!!) culture points for every barb unit you kill, not just for every encampment. With enough barb kills you can chew through the entire Liberty and Honor trees lickety-split. It's why Aztec loving players love setting Barbarians to "Raging." More targets, more culture.

It doesn't hurt that your Jaguars get promoted quickly through the barb kills, though there's a limit to that.

 

[turtlefang]

The Aztecs are one of my favorite civs on marathon BECAUSE of the Jaguar warriors which I regard as somewhat overpowering.

I usually try to build about 12 of them and then use them for the entire game as my mainline troops until tanks come along. Given how cheap the Jags are, their woodcraft ability, two point healing after a kill, and the dbl points for kills barbs, the Jags are simply great - far superior to the archers. And when the woodcraft and healing ability upgrades to the swordsmen line - and ultimately the Mech Inf - you have an unbelievable killing machine.

Monty can simply ripped through the culture tree faster than anyone else including France if handled correctly. And with his hanging garden bonus - even without lakes - build huge cities. His biggest problem will be controlling happiness - no usually growth.

It would be very hard to rush cities with Jags - but you can sure rush the culture tree and get a production/cultural head start on everyone else.

And if you play on raging barbs, you will have a Jag with at least four promotions in short order (woodcraft, healing, and I usually get Drill I & II). Its truly a nasty combination. And if you do build 12 of these, you can always have at least 6 to 8 on the hunt - and average at least two kills every three turns - and sometimes a hold lot more. Build a warship and go hunting, and watch the kills/culture go up even faster.

I just have a really hard time seeing the Jags as "underpowered" - they start early and have a long term, game changing impact.

Its only if you end on a heavy water map that Jags don't make a difference - but then, they wouldn't no matter how you changes them unless they became Vikings.

 

[KIEJ.MANIK]

All I'm saying is they belong in the classical era and it would make alot more sense if they replaced the swordsmen

 

[turtlefang]

As far as where it actually goes in a historical timeline, I can't argue with you. The central American civilization cultures are simply something I haven't study to any great degree. This is more due to the fact that I have traveled more in Asia and studied where I traveled rather than through lack of interest.

But from my game POV, by the time they are Swordsmen, (and I rename my Jaguar Warriors as they get promoted to Jaguar Gd 1 2 3 ....), I have a Swordsmen unit that that has Drill I + Drill II, woodcraft, 2 pts healing after killing, +50% defense in jungle. Definitely one of the best Swords in the game. After my first war, many will get medic, then Siege well before the Middle Ages.

Frankly, not too many units can boost those type of promotions at that stage of the game. And in a MP game, 12 of these puppies at this point will give anyone pause before declaring war or starting a rumble - especially if have broken woods or jungle terrain around your cities.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

I would like to see them as swordsmen too. Their weapons were more advanced than the traditional stone weapons of other "Stone age" civilizations and their armies were more organized too. If you also consider the fact that Jaguars were meant to be the best-armed elite warriors alongside the Eagle warriors and a few other elite units, it really doesn't make sense that they are used to represent the most basic and least upgraded form of warrior.


Personally I think Jaguars should be swordsmen that don't require iron and get their current healing bonus.

 

[Beld]

Lots of folks have these moments with Civ, but just keep in mind historical accuracy is just not something Civ does. With that being said, you've got lots of great knowledge about the Aztecs (sorry) and quite likely, you know a lot about other native cultures. It'd be cool to see you involved in a "rise of the Nahua" mod/scenario.

Lately, I've been itching to play an all "america's" pangea game, but the stock civs are quite lacking. Thankfully there are enough custom/mod "native" civs to fill out a small/standard map game, but that's with stock techtree and no cool scripts for the coming of the Europeans.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.