A request for the byzantine empire

[PMabey]

Please could someone bring back the byzantine empire from civ 3

 

[SailorLazarus]

Actually I am working on this right now. Wei-Yan, already requested it.

 

[PMabey]

great. Any idea when it will be ready

 

[SailorLazarus]

Pretty soon here. I am just about finished with it. I just need to fill in some detail stuff, like the civilopedia and finding another leaderhead picture. My major problem is a lack of time.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one. It's a modern word invented by a French historian to replace Eastern Roman Empire. The term they used to define themselves was Pωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Pωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

 

[Wei-Yan]

Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one. It's a modern word invented by a French historian to replace Eastern Roman Empire. The term they used to define themselves was Pωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Pωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

WOW now thats smart

 

[Supreme Shogun]

Same UU and everything or will you change it ?

 

[SailorLazarus]

Same UU and everything or will you change it ?

The UU's will be the Caphracts. Wei-Yan supplied me will all the info I needed.

 

[Los Tirano]

What about giving them stronger city walls instead of a unique unit? Its a big benefit that could help them for quite a while?

 

[Ferital]

Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one. It's a modern word invented by a French historian to replace Eastern Roman Empire. The term they used to define themselves was Pωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Pωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

Just for the record, the Byzantine Empire is an expression invented not by a French, but by a German historian during the 16th century, named Hieronymus Wolf. His main work about Greek history was published under the title Corpus Historiae Byzantinae. The term "Byzantine" became widely used during the following century.

And another note about the name of this Empire : if the Eastern Roman Empire people referred to their empire as Basileía Romaíon, the other Europeans referred to them as Imperium Graecorum, Graecia or Terra Graecorum, at the same time.

 

[Panther_GR]

Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one. It's a modern word invented by a French historian to replace Eastern Roman Empire. The term they used to define themselves was Pωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Pωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

Just for the record...

The following map is showing a "fantastic" never existed empire that lasted 1300 years. It quotes the following text:

At the death of the Emperor Basil II in 1025 Byzantium stood apparently unassailable; the premier power of medieval europe and the middle east. Half a century later the situation was very different. Byzantium had lost control over its heartland in Asia Minor to the Seljuk Turks and the empire also had to fight desperately to resist invasion from the Normans, based in southern Italy.

The reasons for this dramatic reversal are manifold, and controversial, but include periods of misrule, military breakdown, the nature of Turkish settlement in Asia Minor, and structural changes in economy and society which made maintainance of the self-contained and centralised Byzantine state more difficult.

However dire the situation though, Byzantium was about to stage another of its remarkable recoveries. Since 1081 the Empire at least had an able and extremely determined ruler; the Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, aided by a number of able family members and colleagues, not the least

Please... Don't put your ethnic fanatism in a game forum. OK you are a Turk but don't provoke us claiming that Byzantium never existed...

 

[Golem_Ryder]

Just for the record...

The following map is showing a "fantastic" never existed empire that lasted 1300 years. It quotes the following text:

At the death of the Emperor Basil II in 1025 Byzantium stood apparently unassailable; the premier power of medieval europe and the middle east. Half a century later the situation was very different. Byzantium had lost control over its heartland in Asia Minor to the Seljuk Turks and the empire also had to fight desperately to resist invasion from the Normans, based in southern Italy.

The reasons for this dramatic reversal are manifold, and controversial, but include periods of misrule, military breakdown, the nature of Turkish settlement in Asia Minor, and structural changes in economy and society which made maintainance of the self-contained and centralised Byzantine state more difficult.

However dire the situation though, Byzantium was about to stage another of its remarkable recoveries. Since 1081 the Empire at least had an able and extremely determined ruler; the Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, aided by a number of able family members and colleagues, not the least

Please... Don't put your ethnic fanatism in a game forum. OK you are a Turk but don't provoke us claiming that Byzantium never existed...

He didnt claim that, he simply stated that the Byzantine empire is a modern word first used by historians after the empire existed. The byzantines always refered to themselves as romans as he quite rightly pointed out.

As for ethnic fanaticism your the one whos being anti turkish not vice versa

 

[Panther_GR]

He didnt claim that, he simply stated that the Byzantine empire is a modern word first used by historians after the byzantine empire existed. The byzantines always refered to themselves as romans as he quite rightly pointed out.

As for ethnic fanaticism your the one whos being anti turkish not vice versa

You are jumping to conclusions here...

I took the time to read most of the post of this guy and I've noticed some "accidently" historical mistakes he makes. Anyway if you read my (very few) posts here you'll see that I don't have any anti turkish, or anti whatever at all.

Going to the point now. From where you get this refference "The byzantines always refered to themselves as romans" It might happened at the early ages of Byzantium, but this empire lasted for 11 centuries. And -even some people from Turkey in particular don't like it- this empire was a Greek Orthodox Empire. All cities had Greek names, all emperors the same and even the counties were called "Thema" (which is a Greek word)

I am not being an ethnic supperiority fanatic, but I am surprized that i have to discuss some historical facts here. Because these are historical facts not an argument. There aren't 2 or 3 different approaches or views. It's like someone disputes that Washington is the capital of the U.S.

Some historical facts: When Rome conquered all Greece, Romans adopted many of the Greek's culture, philosophy and literature. The Grekoroman civilization was an outcome of this. By the years as Rome started to decline the Greek element of this Grekoroman civilization became Byzantium

Regarding the argument that Byzantium was former Roman empire is silly. Israel was the same. Greece was the same. France, and many nations were former Roman Empire. And many of them called themselves "Romans". But they didn't lost their ethnic identity...

The Eastern Roman Empire (most of it) became Byzantium mainly due to the fact that all this region adopted Christianity and later chose to remain Orthodox against the Pope. Constantinople was sieged by Crusaders during 1200 for that reason.

The today's name of Constantinople (Istanbul) comes from the Greek expresion "Is tin Polin" (meaning To the City) because those days The City was Constantinople. By 1453 it fell to the Ottomans and after that this empire was eliminated.

Even today most of Turks refer to that day as a historical victory over Greeks. Why? Simply because it is true. They won a Greek civilization and conquered a Greek city. (Recently in a football game between Turkey and Greece Turkey's fans spreaded a huge 50 metres banner advertising their victory over Greece at 1453).

So my argument is that noone can claim that a CIv who lasted for 11-12 centuries, controling a huge part of Eastern Meditteranian, builted Hagia Sophia and one of the world's great cities, has never existedas this guy claims...

 

[Panther_GR]

And for your reference he wrote:

Originally Posted by Tunch Khan
Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one.

So he claims that Byzantium never existed. So I was right to post the previous post...

 

[grantnoelsucks]

Hold on a minute fellas. I am a historian of the late roman empire and can answer this well. I actually just got back to the states 2 days ago from being in Constantinople. The eastern romans called themsevles Romans always without exception. In Constantinople today, the few remaining ethnic greek orthodox christians call themselves "greeks with roman citizenship". Most of Europe refered to the empire as the roman empire except for a few various leaders at various times that were at war with it and wanted to slander it by calling it a greek kingdom. Although much of the culture changed, the political framework of laws remained the same. It would be similar to if the mexican migrations took over america and spanish became the national language and everyone was a hispanic mix. The constitution would be same and the cities the same names even though the culture would be different. They would call themselves americans, much as the greeks called themselves romans. Calling them Byzantines didn't come about until after the empire had been destroyed. Their name in the game should really be the Eastern Roman Empire. Most historians are starting to get out of the shadow of Edward Gibbon and realize his incorrect 18th century assumptions by excavating sites and learning facts about the empire.

 

[Panther_GR]

Hold on a minute fellas. I am a historian of the late roman empire and can answer this well. I actually just got back to the states 2 days ago from being in Constantinople. The eastern romans called themsevles Romans always without exception. In Constantinople today, the few remaining ethnic greek orthodox christians call themselves "greeks with roman citizenship". Most of Europe refered to the empire as the roman empire except for a few various leaders at various times that were at war with it and wanted to slander it by calling it a greek kingdom. Although much of the culture changed, the political framework of laws remained the same. It would be similar to if the mexican migrations took over america and spanish became the national language and everyone was a hispanic mix. The constitution would be same and the cities the same names even though the culture would be different. They would call themselves americans, much as the greeks called themselves romans. Calling them Byzantines didn't come about until after the empire had been destroyed. Their name in the game should really be the Eastern Roman Empire. Most historians are starting to get out of the shadow of Edward Gibbon and realize his incorrect 18th century assumptions by excavating sites and learning facts about the empire.

I'll not argue with you, despite the fact that historical matters are presented by today's historians many times false. I respect your position and education. I myself have an Univercity degree and still I disagree with most of the above, but as i said I'll not argue with you.

The fact of this conversation is that a CIV game that has America in it, should have an empire that lasted 11-12 centuries in an expansion or in a future patch. And that a Turkish guy claimed that this empire have never existed (regardless the name)...

Be well

 

[grantnoelsucks]

I agree that the Eastern Empire should be in the game. It was without a doubt the most important and powerful nation of the middle ages. One interesting note, most turks I spoke with the last few weeks believe that St. Sophia will become a church again soon if Turkey wants to increase its chances of getting into the EU. Its years of desecration are almost at an end.

 

[Panther_GR]

One interesting note, most turks I spoke with the last few weeks believe that St. Sophia will become a church again soon if Turkey wants to increase its chances of getting into the EU. Its years of desecration are almost at an end.

Indeed. I believe that this great monument of Christianity should return to its original status.

 

[Golem_Ryder]

When he said that "there was no such thing as byzantine empire" he was saying that it was refered to as the empire of the romans or whatever. He was not saying that it did not exist he was saying that its name was different, like me saying that England didnt exist in the 5th century Bc as the concept of "England" hadnt came about yet.

The eastern roman empire/Byzantine empire WAS the legitimate continuation of the Roman empire, it was the same state as the Empire which was divided by the emperor constantine. The franks however had a different administrative system, language and culture to that of the roman empire. Greek being the main language in the Eastern Roman empire had always been the case, even in the time of Augustus the language used for government in the east was Greek; Obviously not all the time but the vast majority of the time. I agree though that the Empire which reconquered constantinople was no longer truely the Eastern Roman Empire and so could truly be classed as being a greek empire.

 

[bornfromanegg]

Just for the record, there is no such thing as Byzantine Empire and there has never been one. It's a modern word invented by a French historian to replace Eastern Roman Empire. The term they used to define themselves was Pωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Pωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

hahaha. a rose by any other name?