A Revision of Events (And Animals)

[Praetyre]

One thing I'm really looking forward to in C2C is the implementation of the nomadic camp system for the Prehistoric era. This, along with the hunting system, will really go a long way towards transforming the Prehistoric into a unique game feature in it's own right, which I think is essential towards preserving historical authenticity and atmosphere. Anyway, without further ado, I'd like to suggest that in line with these changes, that the in game events should be overhauled to reflect the technological, infrastructural and practical requirements that their occurance logically implies. To wit;

Spoiler :

The first option in the Forest Fire event (organizing replanting) should require Agriculture. The second option (Send emissaries to assist the bereaved) should require Ceremonial Burial.

The City Ruins event, in it's entirety, should require Writing.

At the Sword should require Military Training.

Man Named Jed should require Fire Making.

Inspired Mission and Hymns & Sculptures should require Priesthood.

Famine should require Writing, a food storage building (the Storage Pit being the first in this line) and contact with at least one AI.

Farm Bandits should require the Bandit Hideout building.

Marathon should require Iron Working.

Faux Pas should require Writing and contact with at least one AI.

Joyous Wedding, Wedding Feud and Left at the Altar should require Caste System (the tech, that is).

Looting should require Writing.

Brothers in Need should require Writing.

Black Pearls should require the Pearl Divers building and Barter.

Truffles should require Caves on a Grass tile.

Breakthrough and Setback should require Writing.

Champion should require Military Training.

Federal Reserve should NOT require the Free Market civic, only the Central Bank building.

Heroic Gesture should require Writing.

Great Mediator should require Writing.

Waters of Life should require Naturopathy.

The Huns, the Vandals and the Goths should require Feudalism (and may need adjustment if new cultures or civs with those names make it in)

The Vedic Aryans should require Bronze Working.

The Philistines should require Iron Working.

Stained Glass should require the Glass resource.

Thoroughbred should require the Horse Breeding technology.

In the Spoiled Grain event, the second option (paying to have the grain replaced) requires Trade.

The Heresy event should require the Intolerant civic rather than the Divine Rule one.

Friendly Locals should require Writing.

Healing Plant should require Writing.

Dissident Priest should require a state religion (and the wording seems to mean it would have to be Kemetism, to boot).

The Buccaneers, Blackbeard, Pirates of the Neutral Zones, Malaccan Pirates, Henry Morgan, Stede Bonnet, the Corsairs and the Illyrian Pirates should all require the Pirate's Cove building.

The Mahdi Army and the Taliban should require Modern Warfare.

The second option for Sandstorm (that of sending out emergency crews to repair the routes) should require Writing.

The Papyrus event should give the Papyrus resource if the player chooses to fund the School of Scribes.

The Mercenaries should require the Bandit Hideout building.

Silver Rain should require Weather Control and the Nanites resource.

Large Recession should not be civic-restricted, but instead require the Central Bank wonder.

City Ruins Treasure should require Writing.

Compulsory Democracy should require the Democracy civic.

I am willing to implement these changes myself if the changes involved would be too much of a distraction for the main XML team.

On a much more minor note, may I suggest that with the upcoming implementation of the Butcher function for Subdued Animals, as well as the Myth buildings from Oral Tradition, that the Governor's Pets/Menagerie buildings (which, incidentally, are misspelled as Govenor's) should require Bronze Working, and the Military Standard building should require Military Training?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Truffles should require Caves on a Grass tile.

I have not gotten caves working yet.

Heroic Gesture should require Writing.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech) or Story Teller's Hut (building)? I don't remember this one so I am not sure.

Stained Glass should require the Glass resource.

Why not Glass Works (building)?

Friendly Locals should require Writing.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech)?

Healing Plant should require Writing.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech) or Natropathy?

The second option for Sandstorm (that of sending out emergency crews to repair the routes) should require Writing.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech)?

The Mercenaries should require the Bandit Hideout building.

Why not Mercenary building?

City Ruins Treasure should require Writing.

???

On a much more minor note, may I suggest that with the upcoming implementation of the Butcher function for Subdued Animals, as well as the Myth buildings from Oral Tradition, that the Governor's Pets/Menagerie buildings (which, incidentally, are misspelled as Govenor's) should require Bronze Working, and the Military Standard building should require Military Training?

That is what you get when you let a dyslexic loose on text. Governors had pets and menageries before metals.

How about Military Standard (which was totem) with Cultural Identity (tech).

Pets and Menagerie with Chiefdom (tech).

 

[DRJ]

I think writing for the most events is too late as in early times with not so many techs researched yet the events are kind of a cake to not get bored, especially on eternity game speed. So i think what Dancing Hoskuld wrote is absolutely right, oral tradition should be the starter for them. Regarding the treasure event which in my recent game is quite regular (I got 5 treasures out of 1 ruin?!!) --> EDIT: just found out that if a city works a ruin tile the chances of treasures increase sufficiently to appear. nice idea, but still too frequent, imho - at least on eternity speed) should maybe begin to start by mining and a "better" treasure should be able to be found with currency. before mining a treasure that contains some weapons might be found, giving XP to units or so. Basically, the treasures would be concepted like producing research with hammers now is: meager, lesser and normal?

 

[strategyonly]

All very interesting ideas, but i am with DH also, the earlier the better, especially on Eternity Speed, as DRJ said also with some good idea(s) also, but the Premise what Praetyre said is really interesting stuff.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Actually, I though that most were really good. It was just 2am and I could not sleep.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Healing Plant should require Writing.

I disagree. This should be something like Herbalism or Natropathy.

The second option for Sandstorm (that of sending out emergency crews to repair the routes) should require Writing.

This sounds more like Tracking or The Wheel.

Why do you have so many linked to "Writing" tech?

 

[Praetyre]

I have not gotten caves working yet.

Fair enough.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech) or Story Teller's Hut (building)? I don't remember this one so I am not sure.

I am using "Writing" as a shorthand for the ability to communicate with and contact other civs to anything than the most basic level, which is how it is used in the Start as Minor civs game option. I also am presuming an altruistic, honour bound gesture like this requires certain sociological concepts that don't really come into being until the Bronze Age. Oral Tradition and Cooperation would also be an acceptable prerequisite.

Why not Glass Works (building)?

That could work too. I was thinking of Glass as a building produced good, not the raw material; my wording was perhaps too ambiguous.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech)?

See my response to "Heroic Gesture".

Why not Oral Tradition (tech) or Natropathy?

That's an understandable assumption; my reasoning for this change is in the wording, which implies "trialing" these herbs in a scientific fashion, a method of thought and analysis which doesn't come into being in this form until the invention of Writing, with the ability to record results and the fact Writing implies a society which has moved beyond the Paleo and Neolithic.

Why not Oral Tradition (tech)?

The concept of a road system or emergency crews to begin with is highly anachronistic in the context of the Paleolithic. This kind of deliberate, organized effort to repair a sophisticated transportation system would require Writing just for the sake of being able to carry orders and possess the kind of bureaucracy the event implies. And Writing, of course, implies at least a Chalcolithic society in terms of technology.

Why not Mercenary building?

I'm fine if either one causes it; they are mercenaries practicing banditry, after all.

???

Finding treasure and texts implies both a concept of wealth, writing and acquired knowledge well beyond that of a simple scavenging effort; cavemen are illiterate and have no interest in lugging around treasure chests when they could be foraging for berries in the wilderness.

That is what you get when you let a dyslexic loose on text. Governors had pets and menageries before metals.

Did they? I thought the kind of advanced societal constructs implied by the existence of provincial and city governors as actual, living beings didn't come about until the Bronze Age. If this is not so, do enlighten me as to their actual point of origin.

How about Military Standard (which was totem) with Cultural Identity (tech).

Good point, actually; I guess what it brought to mind for me was organized Bronze Age military units. Cultural Identity sounds like a better pick.

Pets and Menagerie with Chiefdom (tech).

I considered this one, but I'm not aware of exotic animals being status symbols before Bronze Age times. If they were, then I'm fine with this change.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Remember that pyramid building started in the stone age. Egypt was a nation in the neolithic age as ware the Harrapa (Indus) and Sumer (Mesopotamian). Not to mention China. I can't remember the source for menageries of the very wealthy not just the local leaders. Maybe I should reread the Epic of Gilgamesh again, the earlier versions. Not the latest one that uses New York examples for stuff.

The problem with moving the repair roads to writing is how on earth were they built in the first place if you cant repair them? If you move the whole event until after the tech that allows the first upgrade to paths, then it would make more sense.

You make too much of writing IMO. The only thing writing allows is for people to become lazy and forget stuff because they can read it later.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Agree with DH. Also moving so much to Writing means that the prehistoric era would get less variety of events. If you can make roads (at Tracking) then you can repair them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are some events in the Stone Age mod that may be useful.

Edit testing moving Animal Standard to Cultural Identity and Governor buildings to Chiefdom.

 

[Praetyre]

Remember that pyramid building started in the stone age. Egypt was a nation in the neolithic age as ware the Harrapa (Indus) and Sumer (Mesopotamian). Not to mention China.

I'm not sure what pyramids have to do with anything, but I've certainly never heard of any being built prior to about 2750 BC, which is quite a few centuries into the Bronze Age. Defining the Neolithic as 10,000-3000 BC, Egypt starts at 3100 BC with the Early Dynastic Period, the Indus in 3300 BC and the Sumerian Early Dynastic period starts around 2900 BC. The Xia Dynasty, meanwhile, starts at around 2070 BC, and even counting the Three Kingdoms and Five Emperors period, only goes back to 2500 BC. So, it seems the concept of a nation as opposed to a city state really only came around in the Bronze Age or the very late Chalcolithic.

I can't remember the source for menageries of the very wealthy not just the local leaders. Maybe I should reread the Epic of Gilgamesh again, the earlier versions. Not the latest one that uses New York examples for stuff.

The Epic of Gilgamesh dates, at the earliest, to 2150 BC, and the events it depicts are dated perhaps a few centuries earlier. So again, pretty firmly Bronze Age.

The problem with moving the repair roads to writing is how on earth were they built in the first place if you cant repair them? If you move the whole event until after the tech that allows the first upgrade to paths, then it would make more sense.

That's a very good point, actually. The paths which tracking unlocks seem to represent the trails left behind by animals, and the path construction mission presumably abstracts scouting efforts by Gatherers for trails in that region. Perhaps emergency repair in this context should instead refer to the costs of scouting for new trails?

You make too much of writing IMO. The only thing writing allows is for people to become lazy and forget stuff because they can read it later.

How very Platonic of you. I'm not dead set on Writing as a gateway tech; it's a convenient shorthand for "The technologies which represent the emergency of a sedentary city state civilization with the ability to form complex social relationships with foreign entites". If you want to make it so that the events require Writing OR Bronze Working OR Trade OR Caste System or whatever else technology you can think of that represents this distinction, go right ahead. Bronze Working in particular could fit in well with the Bronze Age and the fact that it unlocks Despotism.

Agree with DH. Also moving so much to Writing means that the prehistoric era would get less variety of events. If you can make roads (at Tracking) then you can repair them.

I am willing to write new events to keep the Prehistoric era interesting.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm not sure what pyramids have to do with anything, but I've certainly never heard of any being built prior to about 2750 BC, which is quite a few centuries into the Bronze Age. Defining the Neolithic as 10,000-3000 BC, Egypt starts at 3100 BC with the Early Dynastic Period, the Indus in 3300 BC and the Sumerian Early Dynastic period starts around 2900 BC. The Xia Dynasty, meanwhile, starts at around 2070 BC, and even counting the Three Kingdoms and Five Emperors period, only goes back to 2500 BC. So, it seems the concept of a nation as opposed to a city state really only came around in the Bronze Age or the very late Chalcolithic.

Step pyramid of Djoser was 2667–2648 BC, but truth be told I was actually thinking of the earlier mastaba constructions in Egypt and experimental pyramids in Nubia.

Doh! I am getting "years ago" and "year BC" mixed up again!

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am willing to write new events to keep the Prehistoric era interesting.

Do you know how to code custom events? Because that would be very helpful to the team to have some besides Ori making custom events.

 

[Praetyre]

No, unfortunately, I don't. By writing I meant that I could come up with the titles, descriptions, choices and consequences for the events.

 

[DRJ]

Step pyramid of Djoser was 2667–2648 BC, but truth be told I was actually thinking of the earlier mastaba constructions in Egypt and experimental pyramids in Nubia.

Doh! I am getting "years ago" and "year BC" mixed up again!

Not to forget about the peruvian pyramids of caral which are even a bit earlier!

 

[Sgtslick]

why not move the events like he suggests and add new ones for earlier on. Random events are great. I wish there were alot more personally, makes your civ feel like it is its own living entity in a way.

It'd be nice if you could have an option when you set up the game similar to sea level; 'Number of Events'- and you could pick how many you like.

 

[Necratoid]

One of the issues is that if you go back far enough and look around enough you start coming up with city ruins at sea level during the last (major) ice age. Which means much of the proof of really, really old stuff (pre-Ancient Egyptian and pre-Gilgamesh's ego) is somewhat far underwater much of the time. There is that 'could-be-a-constructed-stone-temple' sight off the coast of Japan somewhere. India keeps finding what are apparently city ruins in deep water on its west coast.

The point is... don't get too hung up on dates and stone megalith construction. Wood construction comes first and wood tends to rots unless underwater.
---

Anyway, a few possible, prehistoric events:

-Ug does something random and gets himself killed (or near so) in a spectacular manner. (you get towards a related pre-ancient tech you can't research yet or at least aren't researching).

`For instanace: Ug chases down an animal he thinks looks tasty, a while later he comes back with said small animal proving they are fast only in the short term (+ to persistant hunting)

`Ug smashes two rocks together trying to crack a nut open... a red angry spirit consumed his clotheres/gears and damages Ug. science: towards firemaking if you have flint knapping)

You can only get towards things on your immediate queue unless you also have oral history. Trial and error research means learning through other peoples attempts at earning Darwin Awards.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Necratoid & Dancing Hoskuld

I like the idea of underwater ruins found at say "Deep Sea Exploration" tech. I also think we should add Shipwreck resource which could randomly spawn when real ships sink. Not to mention finding random treasure from them, much like how ruins do.

-Ug does something random and gets himself killed (or near so) in a spectacular manner. (you get towards a related pre-ancient tech you can't research yet or at least aren't researching).

I dislike this one because many early techs are depended upon the techs before it. For instance lets say you discover Spear Making before Tool Making, it makes no sense. However I am all for a random free tech from your available tech choices. Just no tech jumping.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Necratoid & Dancing Hoskuld

I like the idea of underwater ruins found at say "Deep Sea Exploration" tech. I also think we should add Shipwreck resource which could randomly spawn when real ships sink. Not to mention finding random treasure from them, much like how ruins do.

I have been having all sorts of trouble getting this to work properly. Basically BtS is not set up as well for sea as it is for land.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have been having all sorts of trouble getting this to work properly. Basically BtS is not set up as well for sea as it is for land.

What about just the sea ruins idea of taking the existing "Ancient Relic" graphics and then setting it in coastal terrain and then have it reveal at Deep Sea Exploration? It could give the same benefits as the other resource has. Just call it like "Sea Ruins" or "Sunken Ruins" or something.

Could then apply the same changes to the Museum as the Ancient Relic do.

Here is what it could look like. It should probably be extremely rare too.