a sid win for Offa

[Offa]

This probably not very interesting for the HOF elite that live round here, but seemd the best place to post my game log.

For some considerable time now it has bugged me that I haven’t won at Sid level. Admittedly I had had only one concerted go, giving up in the late industrial era in a game which in retrospect I should have won. I have started a number of times since but have given up at an early stage (1000bc or before). Anyway I finally decided to have yet another go, partly as I have finally managed to get MapFinder to work, at least for a while. In addition it has become clear that GOTM isn’t going to feature Sid. I thought some time about the easiest way to win at Sid and eventually decided to try a tiny conquest game like Boogaboo. At least that way I don’t have to play for 3 days to realize the game is lost. I have neither the ability nor the patience to try a huge map like SirPleb and Moonsinger.

Therefore, I have copied Boogaboo’s opening strategy. Settings:
Tiny, Pangaea. No respawn of course. Play as Aztec; opponents France and Arab (from Boogaboo’s log, I suspect various others would do OK).
I think I set AI aggression to standard. Barbarians off. There may be something to be said for max aggression and possibly for having some barbs (money was tight). I also set a cold map at 4 billion years. At least that’s what I meant to do. Then I got map finder to give me starts with at least 3 grass, 1 forest, a cow and a river.

My first few goes with this last week revealed that it wasn’t anywhere near as impossible as it might be imagined to attack the AI early on and survive, but to get a worthwhile peace settlement you need to take or destroy a town. I played one game where I destroyed the French early on but stalled v the Arabs so I gave this up. It did give me heart though that this would be the way forward for a Sid win.

For my next attempt I gathered up a few more maps with map finder and had a go. All starts are pretty much the same: Settle on the spot, chop the forest down to make a barracks and then build a jag warrior (complete in 3500bc). Boogaboo implies in his log this can be speeded up, but I haven’t managed to do so. The jag warrior goes off in search of an AI city, trades as much as possible and then attacks. My first 5 or 6 goes ended at this stage with an unsuccessful first attack, an unlikely run of bad fortune, but each game only took a couple of minutes, slightly longer in the case I let the AI take out my capital. This does potentially limit the use of this tactic in GOTM, but some of these attempts involved attacks on spearmen in hill towns, which aren’t really very likely wins. The AI does develop bronze working quickly.

The next attempt went better and played all the way. I captured an Arab town in 3350bc, size 2 defended by a single regular warrior with my first attack, reducing my Aztec warrior to 2 HP. The AI stack was just 3 squares away, but not seen until the following turn:

3250BC

Obviously I couldn’t hope to defend the captured town so I pressed forward with my jag warrior hoping to dodge the stack, and fortunately the stack retreated. I am not sure whether they retreated because of the “threat” from my one 2HP jag or because of the great news that I soon discovered: the Aztecs and French were at war with one another. Great news indeed!

I actually played the rest of the game pretty cautiously as I just wanted to win, and wasn’t worried about winning quickly. To start with I sent archers up to Arabia and eventually captured several workers and destroyed a town. I made peace with the Arabs in 2510bc for a town and techs, leaving them playing as a OCC for the time being.

2510bc

By 2430bc, I had 6 archers, 6 jags, and 2 warriors but I was “strong” compared with the others. The AI concentrated on building wonders in their capitals as well, which could only be good. With a very aggressive and lucky game a much earlier win than I achieved would have been possible, although it probably would have risked losing. It was a long way to France (16 squares to Paris, and 25 squares to the furthest French town) which slowed thing up as well. The Arab capital by contrast was 10 squares from my capital.


In 1990bc I had bad news, seeing a French swordsman. I was fortunately more or less in place to attack the French by then and traded lots of gpt and some gold for iron working and then attacked. The French swordsman killed a jag and then I lost 3 vet archers trying to finish him off, by which time my military was back to average.
In 1990 BC I also made the bold move of settling a town with a settler I had built myself. This seems an indulgent waste of resources but the unit support was onerous and it did give me a luxury.

1990bc:

Fortunately the RNG didn’t remain so cruel and I did make some progress v the French and eventually destroyed 2 towns and captured another. I then regrouped a bit as I didn’t have much military left. I hooked up iron and started making swordsmen. While waiting for iron I made lots of warriors to upgrade which was a mistake as I never had enough cash.

The Arabs built the Oracle then regrew a bit so I cut them back. By 1550bc both AI were done to one city, but I didn’t have enough nearby troops to deliver a killer blow. The French also rallied building the statute of Zeus to go with the Pyramids. I had planned to kill off the Arabs before dealing with France but after hearing about the statue of Zeus I diverted everything against France. My units were a long way off but I didn’t like the thought of Ancient cavalry running amok.

Fortunately I captured Paris in 1300bc after it had produced only 1 ancient cavalry, and I killed off the remaining French town the same turn.

1300bc:

Paris built an Ancient cavalry for me next turn which just had time to get to Mecca to join the final assault in 1200bc for a conquest win.

Frankly, that is the most satisfying civ game I have had in years, so thanks Boogaboo for the inspiration. I suspect I could have won much earlier with luck and very aggressive play, but I was very cautious as I was anxious to win and this game looked very winnable from the moment I found the French and Arabs at war with one another. In fact it is surprising just how straightforward the game was. I think that if you can capture or destroy a town with the first assault then you have fairly reasonable (relatively speaking) chances to go all the way. On a map with closer AI even earlier wins would presumably be possible. A leader would have been useful as well: I had none. Overall I think I had somewhat favourable combat RNG but nothing exceptional.

Final Army:

Power Graph

So: Conquest win 1175bc, score 26227. Play time 2 hours 44min.

 

[boogaboo]

Competition!!! Congratulations!!!

Although you didn't beat my 1475BC game, I saw all the characharistics of my game -

MONEY: You will always have a "sad" parabula graph of money -
At start, especially thanks to the river and small army, you get to save money.
Then, you usually have to start taking a city or 2 for maintnance instead of razing them (it may affect peace badly, for peace - you better raze them..).
When the iron comes, you just have to get some sowrdsman out and upgrade with what money you got left, even if it's only 1 sowrdsman.
You may leave a bit spare, but plan on an early win and many casualties..

AGRESSIVENESS: I put mine on "least agressive" but I think it helps the AI-AI war, just 2 points of attitude towards me, and they start turning against each other.
I'm never sure if an AI-AI war is good on Sid, since they tend to kill all their stacks, have low maintnance, then produce a better teched army faster than the eye can see..
Most times they fail tt attack a AI city, and leave a 5HP spearman for me.. not so good.

CLOSENESS: It is not so good to be too close to both AIs opposed to what I thought at the start - when you start a war, you want THEM to be a bit far, and you should already be close.
Then, when you war, the stack is in the middle of nowhere, impotent, not bothering you at all.

RNG: First attack is a must, but you can't totally rely on luck for the rest of the game.
Still, it doesn't end by 3000BC, but later, and luck should be planned to be a bit above avarage, buit that's it.
When luck is down, and my stack hopelessly crashes into a city, it's usually time to start a new game.

TIME: One of the limitations of the game is that you have to wait a few turns for the AI to talk peace, so you are set back anyway. Noone can speed this process up, and you have to be aware of it. The minimum is 4 turns I think - on the first war if you raze a city.
This way, with 2 AIs, the game cannot end MUCH sooner than what has already been done..... I think.

And... they always tend to do wonders, and they finish statue of Zues almost every game.
So, it is something to be highly aware of, and that civ should be conquered.. better before, although I never got to take SoZ from anyone..

Last.... I'm now hooked up strongly on Warcraft3 (TFT expansion), and it will take me awhile to go back playing again, but I'm sure I will... 1-3 month is my normal vacations from civ to play other games... WC3 is great, but most are kids!!!

Good go, Offa!

 

[General Joey]

Nice game! I can still only dream of Sid level, or in my case, Deity

 

[EMan]

Well done Offa....another milestone reached!

And... they always tend to do wonders, and they finish statue of Zues almost every game.
So, it is something to be highly aware of, and that civ should be conquered.. better before, although I never got to take SoZ from anyone..

2 comments here:
1. Use MapFinder to find maps which INCLUDE Ivory in the starting position.....chances are that there will be NO more ivory on the map, so you won't have to worry about the AI building SoZ!
2. If you want to win on Sid without using the "boogaboo Aztec Strategy", try using Carthage and building the Statue Of Zeus early on!

 

[boogaboo]

Well done Offa....another milestone reached!


2 comments here:
1. Use MapFinder to find maps which INCLUDE Ivory in the starting position.....chances are that there will be NO more ivory on the map, so you won't have to worry about the AI building SoZ!
2. If you want to win on Sid without using the "boogaboo Aztec Strategy", try using Carthage and building the Statue Of Zeus early on!

1. Using MapFinder for Ivory is not good, since it may give you maps with Ivory that don't worth anything beyond.. I would have got perhaps 1 map out of 100 I got from MapFinder if I added this..

2. Building the SoZ does not worth it I think.
You have to research/buy techs, which takes time, and produce it which takes too much time.
Why build something that gives you a unit every 5 turns if you can usually get archer/turn or sowrdsman/2 turns??
The building time is a definite setback I wouldn't take.

 

[Offa]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Re ivory, I agree that it would be nice to start with some, but I can't get mapfinder to run long enough to make the search practical. Mapfinder stops whenever my PC develops a urge to connect to the net, which it does disturbingly often . As it is I didn't ask for any luxury at all, and didn't get any.

@Eman: how practical is the Carthage strategy? If it works it implies the SOZ must be very powerful.

The Aztecs are mainly useful as they facilitate the initial attack, which this approach depends on. Later on a fast UU with an attack of 2 would be nice, but would the initial attack be practical? Egypt and Hittites spring to mind. In my game I am pretty sure conquest could be speeded up, but Boogaboo's date is very good. I think I will have another couple of goes sometime, but won't carry on for long if it looks like very lucky RNG is needed, as that would just get frustrating. I am pretty entertained by the idea of trying something like this in GOTM, but it might lead to a very short game and a red ambulance award.

I am intrigued by the idea that the AI being at war isn't good. I was delighted when I saw them battling with one another. They didn't grow as quickly as I think they normally would, and still didn't build much of a military as they were so keen to build wonders. I thought their support allowance was enormous so wouldn't hold them back, but don't know the numbers. I do agree that it isn't necessary for them to be at war as in my first attempt I killed off the French before they had contacted the Arabs (as far as I know). It was very satisfying to see their intact stack disappear into thin air. In that game the Arabs were too far away and had grown very strong before I met them. Really it seems you need to clip both AI early on, at least if playing a Pangea conquest.

 

[EMan]

@Eman: how practical is the Carthage strategy? If it works it implies the SOZ must be very powerful.

Carthage + Statue Of Zeus is a good combination if you're ONLY trying to WIN at Sid Level............I think I submitted a couple of Sid-Level HOF games about 3 months ago!!