AAR: Terraforming with Miriam on Chieftain

Pfeffersack

Deity
Joined
May 10, 2003
Messages
3,324
Location
Germany
Leader: Miriam
Difficulty: Chieftain
Map Script and Size: Planetfall Standard
Climate: Temperate
Sea Level: High
Starting Age: Arrival
Speed: Normal
Ressources: Standard
Special Rules:
* Captured cities can flip back to previous owner
* No tech brokering

Starting value of the Flowering Counter = 16


2100 Founded New Jerusalem
2106 Pod: 35C and Centauri Geology
2109 FC=17
2112 R: Soil Enrichment
2119 R: Ultraponics
2128 FC=18
2130 R: Recycling
2133 Revolution ---> Enclosed Biospheres
2136 R: Biogenetics
2141 R: Centauri Hydrology
2145 FC=19
2147 Founded Great Conclave
2149 R: Bio-Engineering
2156 R: Doctrine Flexbility
2159 R: Doctrine Mobilty
2162 FC=20
2166 R: Archeology
2175 R: Cenaturi Meditation
2177 R: Renewable Energy
2180 FC=21
2185 R: Super Conductor
2186 Revolution ---> Free Market
2188 Founded Great Zion
2195 FC=22
T: Information Networks
2197 T: Polymorph Software, Holographics and Pressure Dome
2198 T: Nuclear Physics
R: High Energy Chemistry
2199 Founded Far Jericho
Pod: Chopper
2202 R: Industrial Automation
2206 T: Environmental Economics
2208 Revolution ---> Democracy
2209 Founded Redemption Base
2211 R: Memetics
Founded HOMO SUPERIOR in Great Conclave
2214 T: Factionalism
Built the Human Genom Project in New Jerusalem
2215 FC=23
2219 R: Doctrine Initiative
2220 Ali Lamar (GrD) has been born in New Jerusalem (settled down in Far Jericho 2222)
2222 LAL became our vassal
2226 FC=24
2228 Founded Children of God
2230 ZHAKAROV became our vassal
2233 R: Magnetic Acceleration
Tycho Brahe (GrD) has been born in New Jerusalem
2235 T: Industrial Base
2236 Founded Noah's Rainbow
2237 FC=25
2239 R: Algaculture
2242 Built the Unity Library in New Jerusalem and discovered Fusion Power
2245 T: Social Psych, Planetary Networks
2247 Evisa Tanet (GrD) has been born in Great Conclave (built Fire Temple there)
2249 R: Kinematics
2253 Isaac Newton (GrD) has been born in New Jerusalem
2257 FC=26
R: Cloning
2264 R: Biofuel
2275 FC=27
Founded The Voice of God
2276 Johannes Kepler (GrD) has been born in New Jerusalem
2277 Revolution ---> Power and Fundamentalism
2278 R: Atmospheric Transformation


Purpose of this game was to see how dangerous native life is on the lower levels, esepcially on the seas. I choosed the worst possible setup for this - Miriam, played as a Terraformer, on a Planet with High Sealevel.

I had a nice starting position - a bit dry (but that's why we have EB early and condensers later, right?), but with some ressources...and some fungus patches. Yes, they can make a Terraformers live easier in the beginning - you can sneak in some early farms and mines and stay in postive planet attitude long enough to prepare yourself for the inevitable. Here is the development of my attitude in this game:

- until ~2150 Planet Attitude above +1
- 2168: the first time negative Planet Attitude
- 2182: the first time below -1 PA and just in that turn last fungus around capital cleaned (no fungal blooms until that, even none prevented by culture)
- shorty after 2200: PA at -2
- 2208: first native life on sea sighted
- 2232: PA at -3
- 2267: PA at -4

It looked like I could consolidate my Empire after having dealt with the initiatally nearby fungus - the (for an Emperor) "usual" AI attack didn't happen...instead the AI offered my favorable tech trades (not 1:1, the always put money on top on Chieftain as well) and two of them offered becoming vassals soon (Lal 2222 and Zhakarov 2230). Nonetheless, I expected the AIs to perform even worse on such a level - they expanded oversea, they were at least able to repel native life attacks on land,
Deidre managed to capture some IoDs with her slightly green attitude of +1 and Santiago delighted me with building the first AI seabase in my games ever :king:

Native life is a different beast - and here we have to distinguish as well between "wandering" creatures and those who are results of fungal blooms.

The former does not feel in any way less threatening then on Emperor. Surely, the density of "wandering" native life is lower, but that is compensated by the fact that the AI expands less (just compare the two minimaps - compare the settled areas and the number of red dots) - so you end up with nearly the same absolute number of creatures, just with the difference that they tend to go for you more often (because you are likely to be one of the biggest factions).
However, that is the situation on sea - wandering native life on land is close to non-existent, again both on Chieftain and Emperor (difficulty makes no real difference for the reasons explained above). I think there are two reasons, why you never have a lot of chance to explore the wilderness on land and capture many mindworms - land is settled by everyone with preference over water and becomes "civilized" soon and more over 5 out of 7 civilizations start close to each other, often on an island which is very tight for them. That also leads Yang and Santiago often dominating in games without SLP.

For fungal blooms, it doesn't make much difference either - you have your do's and dont's as usual:
- Do build enough (Aqua)formers
- Do use them in teams (=ideally cleaning out fungus in one, but at least two turns) and run 2+ such teams both on sea and land
- Do escort them sufficiently (if you want to be save: 1 ship/unit per former)
- Do focus on settling highlands
- Do watch your neighbours, if there is fungus on their side near the border
- Do watch your culture and make sure that border expansions don't bring you in trouble (because bringing you close to fungus)
- Do guard threatened bases sufficiently, exspecially with some mobile units (Choppers, Rovers) as well
- Do bunker your land and bases
- Don't expand with bases into fungal areas without first cleaning the fungus
- Don't get cought on defense on land and don't get cought on defense and a fungus tile even more

So Chieftain is surely not unplayable, if you follow those rules - but it is also in no way more foregiving, if you fail. And to fail, it can be enough:
- to be too slow with cleaning out fungus near a base, which expands its borders
- not to attack Deidre, who doesn't care about the single fungus tile in her territory, which will sooner or later cross your border...
- to get cought in the trap of too quickly expanding into dangerous areas (you simply cannot run into that problem on Emperor...you are lucky, if you can expand enough at all and nearly always the AI has done the pioneer work for you)

If you make a mistake (and I did by overexpanding, not building a second team of aquformers fast enough and letting Deidre do her strange mixture of terraforming and green politics...), the fungal blooms come as bad and often as on Emperor (at least I didn't notice any difference in frequency or number of spawned creatures). Culture can be especially a trap - someone might think it is a good way to block fungal blooms, but he or she might overlook the dangers. Protection against fungal blooms is nice, but you might either get in trouble before acquirng it or if you have used up your "blocks" (which can happen quite soon)

I think this might cause the frustration for players on low levels - there is not much tolerance for any mistakes concerning planet managment and the weak AIs put the main burden of dealing with the Planet to the human player, which makes it feel like playing Emperor.

So what can be done?

1. I would suggest to increase the values for <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>?</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
for the four lowest levels (by 100/75/50/25% to keep a steady increase)
Settler 375 ---> 750
Chieftain 300 ---> 525
Warlord 275 ---> 413
noble 250 ---> 313
2. Eventually a decrease for <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>?</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> on the mid to high levels to make the wandering native life more dangerous and to balance Yang and santiago better. However, I need to run a test find working values.
3. I noticed in handicap.xml a few more lines:

Code:
<UnownedTilesPerSpawns>
<UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<DomainType>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainType>
<iNumTiles>150</iNumTiles>
</UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<DomainType>DOMAIN_SEA</DomainType>
<iNumTiles>3000</iNumTiles>
</UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<DomainType>DOMAIN_AIR</DomainType>
<iNumTiles>3000</iNumTiles>
</UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<UnownedTilesPerSpawn>
<DomainType>DOMAIN_IMMOBILE</DomainType>
<iNumTiles>150</iNumTiles>
</UnownedTilesPerSpawn>

What do they regulate? Are they connected to fungal blooms/the hereby spawned creatures in any way?
 

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I'd be happy to change the frequency of random native life spawning.

I don't understand though: in one part of your post you say that the amount of native life going for you doesn't seem to feel different, yet elsewhere you state you only saw your first naval native life in MY 2208. On Emperor I see them much sooner. :confused:

instead the AI offered my favorable tech trades (not 1:1, the always put money on top on Chieftain as well)

Hmm, I didn't know that was affected by difficulty level. I hate it that the AI never offers fair deals. Do you have any idea what XML tag affects this behaviour?

The former does not feel in any way less threatening then on Emperor. Surely, the density of "wandering" native life is lower, but that is compensated by the fact that the AI expands less (just compare the two minimaps - compare the settled areas and the number of red dots) - so you end up with nearly the same absolute number of creatures, just with the difference that they tend to go for you more often (because you are likely to be one of the biggest factions).

That's only because you're playing on Chieftain level with Emperor skills though. I assume a Chieftain-skilled player would be of similar size as the AIs.

I'm not sure what to do with fungal blooms. Again, you were playing with Emperor skills, so you'd get fungal blooms at just the same frequency as usual. Fungal bloom frequency is not affected by difficulty level. I kinda assumed that weaker players would also have a weaker economy with less eco-damage, and thus fungal blooms would naturally scale with player skills. I have no idea if this is in fact true though.

I wouldn't know how to make native life scale with difficulty level and at the same time keep Hybrid and Terraformed equally balanced toward each other as they are on Emperor.

What do they regulate? Are they connected to fungal blooms/the hereby spawned creatures in any way?

That's old code by Ellestar. It does nothing. It's annoying to have it take up space in the Handicap files, but removing its roots in the SDK would take time of course. I'd rather do other stuff indeed.
 
The measures you pointed out are pretty obvious once you understood the basics about Planetfall. Key is to never get lazy and build too many buidlings. Choppers/Rovers/Tanks are very good for defending your land and formers.
For all that Terraformers get treated the best economy. I actually find the Terraformers easier to play than the hybrids.
Granted it would be probably hard to fend off a dedicated mindworm rush by Deirdre, but the AI doesn't seem to know about that ;)
 
I'm not sure what to do with fungal blooms. Again, you were playing with Emperor skills, so you'd get fungal blooms at just the same frequency as usual. Fungal bloom frequency is not affected by difficulty level. I kinda assumed that weaker players would also have a weaker economy with less eco-damage, and thus fungal blooms would naturally scale with player skills. I have no idea if this is in fact true though.
Well, I play on Noble and fungal blooms are - usually - pretty manageable (but I don't play full hardcore terraforming, but then I don't play Miri very often), as long as you pump out enough formers.

The problem, however, is a bit that beginners tend to focus on a lower number of bases (builder-syndrome), which means that your important main bases are closer to the border and the fungus. Also, the bases usually have a similar size as better players, they're often just less focussed, so they still do a lot of eco-damage. But I don't think it's a big issue, especially once the normal native spawns are corrected, one needs to re-evaluate this anyway.

Cheers, LT.
 
I don't understand though: in one part of your post you say that the amount of native life going for you doesn't seem to feel different, yet elsewhere you state you only saw your first naval native life in MY 2208. On Emperor
I see them much sooner. :confused:

My sighting refered to two IoDs approaching my coast - I would have probably seen native life earlier, if I had sailed out. But that wasn't the case up to that year. You are of course right - Chieftain will see "Barbarians" later then on Emperor, that is affected by some value in the handicap.xml. However, I'm pretty sure that it is both for Chieftain and Emperor far before turn 108. My comment on that it doesn't feel different was solely targeted on the numbers I was confronted with after it started appearing.


Maniac said:
Hmm, I didn't know that was affected by difficulty level. I hate it that the AI never offers fair deals. Do you have any idea what XML tag affects this behaviour?

I searched the handicap.XML and came only up with the modifier for the human player, so I posted my question in a roughly fitting thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=324417&highlight=unfair+tech+trading

The (unpleasent) answer is that this isn't controlled by a single parameter for the AI. In the opposite, there is no AI modifier at all - AI has some price for a tech (starting from a base value, a special AI weigthing for certain techs is factored in and some circumstancial parameters like if they have already researched towards it or how many other civs know it already, are applied) and human player has it's own tech value in beakers (again the above mentioned factors and with some impact as well, difficulty). What we perceive now as unfair, gracious or just break even deal is just result of the fact that the AI will always charge/offer you a tech for what it considers as "its price".

So difficulty has an indirect effect - for as humans, tech on higher levels get more and more expensive, while the AI will still offer the same price. So "correcting" or at least diminishing those unfairness would require making tech research rates flat for the human player for all levels and if that isn't enough, taking out things like AI preferences for certain techs (which I guess are in for a reason - however, I can't tell if Planetfall uses that weighting at all or might have artifacts from BTS code left).

Flat research rates could work, if they are somehow compensated by an increasing penalty for income in some way (or a boost on AI side), but I'm not sure if it is worth the work.


Maniac said:
That's only because you're playing on Chieftain level with Emperor skills though. I assume a Chieftain-skilled player would be of similar size as the AIs.
I'm not sure what to do with fungal blooms. Again, you were playing with Emperor skills, so you'd get fungal blooms at just the same frequency as usual. Fungal bloom frequency is not affected by difficulty level. I kinda assumed that weaker players would also have a weaker economy with less eco-damage, and thus fungal blooms would naturally scale with player skills. I have no idea if this is in fact true though.

I can't tell as well, but I'm not to optimistic about it. A terraform strategy is mainly about planting farms and building mines in the beginning, which is not so fundamentally different to standard Civ. And even if - with aweaker economy, some fungal blooms might not happen, but the player might also miss the means to fight the remaining native life.
But I guess only players playing on that levels can comment on this.


Maniac said:
I wouldn't know how to make native life scale with difficulty level and at the same time keep Hybrid and Terraformed equally balanced toward each other as they are on Emperor.

It could be tried to make a Hybrid strategy more easy as well... e.g. 1 or 1/2 extra green heart for each base initially [problem is that this also helps the Terrafromers], higher capture chance for native life [ok, that would require to lower the chance from 100% on higher levels] But you are irght, it isn't easy to found something specially targeting a Hybrid strategy.


Lord Tirian said:
Well, I play on Noble and fungal blooms are - usually - pretty manageable (but I don't play full hardcore terraforming, but then I don't play Miri very often), as long as you pump out enough formers.

That's a crucial point. It feels like it makes a great difference, if you are close to a balanced state with slightly negative PA or if you reach a value of -4 like in this game - though I can't say what it is. No free culture starts at 0, reduced experience for native life only affects you, if you build it, so there is only the combat minus visibily left (-13% at PA -4)...are there further hidden effects as well (more blooms etc.), perhaps locally tied to how negative a PV of a base it? I remember a change towards centralisation longer ago and found it in the readme of V6-Patch f, but the readme only says that the free experience and culture was nationalised.
 
I'm going to argue again that fungal blooms should be reduced in the early game. Preferably (in my opinion) by having Flowering counter influenced either by human population number or certain techs (not just the hybrid forest and commune ones). However, I think the wandering native life should be more prolific to slow down exploration.
The big benefit I see of keeping Planet happy early on is that positive Planet Attitude provides free influence. This is very important early on in the game when you're trying to capture territory on the main crowded continent without a war.
 
I searched the handicap.XML and came only up with the modifier for the human player, so I posted my question in a roughly fitting thread:

Thanks, very interesting. I always assumed it was some design choice by Firaxis.

Given this info, I'd say the AI's offers are in fact fair, right?

It could be tried to make a Hybrid strategy more easy as well... e.g. 1 or 1/2 extra green heart for each base initially [problem is that this also helps the Terrafromers]

Actually that's what we want, right? Something that makes all strategies easier?
I'll add +1 Planet to all bases on levels lower than Noble, and +2 on Settler.
 
Thanks, very interesting. I always assumed it was some design choice by Firaxis.

Given this info, I'd say the AI's offers are in fact fair, right?

Yes, after understanding what causes it I think so.


Actually that's what we want, right? Something that makes all strategies easier? I'll add +1 Planet to all bases on levels lower than Noble, and +2 on Settler.

I just thought of it as an addition and was too narrow-minded to come to the idea to use it as complete solution ;) But now that you say... of course, some extra free hearts alone could help to make the beginner levels easier (it is also a concept which works pretty well for both happiness and healtiness). Lets see if it helps here as well.
 
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