About AI cheat, AI redlined, you cheese

[Salamandre]

Ok, I will not complain about how AI cheats because I am aware it needs it.

But there are ways and ways. I can accept more gold,production discount, view ressources, better trade discount AI-AI; what I can not accept is this BUG where AI can ask you everything, anytime, while AI is always redlined when you try to do same.


How the hell an AI which hates me can ask me 30 times in the game to give technology, thus giving me more and more negative points. While its techs are ALWAYS redlined to me. And ask me to join wars when he is already at -15 And ask me to convert to another religion thousand times for a unlimited negative modifiers...


I tested in several games with 18 civs. I NEVER saw in relations AI-AI that -1 modifier "you refused to help us". Dont tell me AI is ALWAYS gifting its techologies, because it is not true. The truth is that you are the ONLY one on who AI are picking, demands, tributes, join to war. I NEVER saw any negative modifiers between AI, except war and religious .

It kills me

 

[Pantastic]

So, what you're complaining is that the game tells you that asking for a a certain thing from the AI will never work, and doesn't let you press it? Would it make you happy if the game just redded out the items but let you ask, even though you'd know it would never accept? Or would you rather just hide the red text entirely, so you could ask for something over and over even though they'll never say yes? I'm sure that somewhere between mods and the SDK you could make the diplomacy window provide less information to you.

I'm not sure how the AI asking for stuff and getting more hostile to you if you don't give it is supposed to be a cheat, I do the same thing. If the AI won't trade with me, I tend to put him higher on The List of my targets. Doesn't really matter if he keeps refusing or if it's redlined, I'll kill a non-trading AI before a trading one every time.

 

[LeConquerant]

The truth is that you are the ONLY one on who AI are picking, demands, tributes, join to war. I NEVER saw any negative modifiers between AI, except war and religious .

Salamandre,
well the computer players, are just computer players. They are not willing to be challenged, they did not pay the 50-60€ to get the game, and none of them will go complaining you're getting more interactions from other computer players than they do.

I am not sure I voiced it that clear, but IMHO, I can not care less if it is more or less challenging for the AI than it is for me: it only depends on the difficulty setting you have. I often get asked tributes several times in a row when i am weak, but I do the same repeated demands on lower civ's before attacking them, just in case I can grab some more. And I often accept peace treaties + tributes only to stack up armies for ten turns, and tehn demand tributes again, and then attack again.

Luckily there is no forum for computer players complaining how unfair we can be to them....

 

[vsipinen]

I often get asked tributes several times in a row when i am weak, but I do the same repeated demands on lower civ's before attacking them, just in case I can grab some more. And I often accept peace treaties + tributes only to stack up armies for ten turns, and tehn demand tributes again, and then attack again.

But can you ask items marked with red colour as tribute ? I think it should be possible to demand anything you like, and perhaps even to make it clear to AI that refusing the demand would automatically cause war (that could be a new level of "request" - ultimatum - which should better motivate the AI to accept the demand). Also when the AI is clearly losing the war, it should be more ready to give what is demanded for peace - at least first time (if it has been attacked several times after giving something for peace, I think it is OK for it to realize that accepting the demand will not help it).

 

[PhysicsRules]

But can you ask items marked with red colour as tribute ? I think it should be possible to demand anything you like, and perhaps even to make it clear to AI that refusing the demand would automatically cause war (that could be a new level of "request" - ultimatum - which should better motivate the AI to accept the demand). Also when the AI is clearly losing the war, it should be more ready to give what is demanded for peace - at least first time (if it has been attacked several times after giving something for peace, I think it is OK for it to realize that accepting the demand will not help it).

I agree to that. And I agree with TS that it is kindof inconsistent that the AI becomes angry when asking stuff you don't want to trade, while it can block you from questioning the same.

From an AI perspective, the games looses a possible component. The AI does not now if it refuses you a certain demand. The red lines prevent the AI from knowing anything about your attitude. It can be a whole part of diplomacy to demand stuff you KNOW AI will refuse, just to piss them off. It's a shame it can't be done. In CIV3, I civ could even declare war if you made a ridiculous demand. Never heard of that in CIVIV.

 

[Salamandre]

So, what you're complaining is that the game tells you that asking for a a certain thing from the AI will never work, and doesn't let you press it?

No, I complain about the thing that AI can ask you the same TECH/MAP/PACT/RESSOURCES which are redlined when you try to ask him. I remember one of the CIV series had the option to not talk to AI if you wanted. Do not remember which. I would like to have same option here.


It should be redlined on your side as well, so AI cant bother you with ridiculous demands when things are already worse.

 

[LeConquerant]

It should be redlined on your side as well, so AI cant bother you with ridiculous demands when things are already worse.

yes... maybe we could have the option to redline on our side too - a checkbox by opponent would make it.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I think the op is just a little pissed off with the "constant one way begging" which you have to endure..for me and others it has reached the point where its partly spoiling the enjoyment of the game..

You yourself have 2 options..

a) Could you spare this for a good friend...(if on good terms)
b) We demand that you give us this (average relations or below)

Then you have to be "allowed" to ask in the first place..to deny this aspect (and yes I know the reasons, some good, most to stop exploits and "simplify" diplomacy) wasn't a good development decision.

It riles people; I can't see why some can't understand this..if Pete asks if he can borrow something off Jim, and Jim agrees, then Pete's better disposed to Jim..but Jim's not allowed to ask Pete back..but Pete see Jim every day , and asks and asks and asks..and Jim keeps saying no. And Jim never asks back , because Pete won't allow him to. Pete now hates Jim, but doesn't realise what a moron he's become, and Jim would have gladly lent him the stuff he wanted If the agreement was even slightly reciprocal. After the 2nd refusal they should have either parted ways, or Pete should have offered Jim something back. Its part of human nature, it can't ever be one way traffic.

(Apologies for that slightly rubbish analogy )


Back to the 2 options..

Under a) You're kind of pushing it anyways, and being refused shouldn't produce any effect on either party (you're supposed to be friendly)

Under b) yes fine, it produces resentment from a negative response, and should, but after several refusals you shouldn't need to ask again.

Personally, I wish that 2 diplomacy options had been included in the game...the present one under a "simplified diplomacy banner", and a "full diplomacy" option where you could mix and match offers more akin to Civ III.

I'm say Spain, have a large military but England don't like me. Russia invade England..and now I might get "we request your aid in the war against the russians". But why on earth should I help..I don't like England, but refusing makes them dislike me more. If England approach me (realising we don't exactly get on - which isn't exactly hard to check) with "we request your aid in the war against the russians and will give you 1000 Gold and show you how to build better ships" then I might be tempted.

It goes for wars to, if you're the conquerer, you should be allowed to ask for anything you want..they can refuse fine, but being told by the computer what you can and can't ask for is too much a metaphorical slap in the face for many people..

Anyways, I thought my ranting days were over..I've gone off on another..I'd better shut up now

 

[Meffy]

It's not a cheat. It's not a bug. It's the difference between a computer construct and a living, thinking creature.

If it makes you feel better, interpret the red items as meaning "By looking at this item you've already asked, and I said no. But because I'm so nice, I won't hold it against you." Voilà! Problem eliminated.

If that doesn't help -- well, you have access to the XML, the Python, and now the C++ code that make up practically all the game! Change it to suit your idea of How Things Ought To Be.

 

[vsipinen]

If it makes you feel better, interpret the red items as meaning "By looking at this item you've already asked, and I said no. But because I'm so nice, I won't hold it against you." Voilà! Problem eliminated.

In my opinion the AI should not be so stubborn that it will never in any situation to give something, at least if a massively superior civilization makes an angry demand. I think it is good idea that some items are marked impossible to trade with normal trade contracts, but the demands should be different.

 

[Meffy]

In my opinion the AI should not be so stubborn that it will never in any situation to give something, at least if a massively superior civilization makes an angry demand.

And in my opinion it should. As I said, you have all the tools needed to alter just about anything in the game. If you'd like things to be different, you can change it.

But realize beforehand that there might be very good reasons why it's that way... reasons that might have become evident during testing with lots of people, but which might not be obvious to one or a few players. I can't say; I'm not interested in trying to change this. But if I did, I'd want to be aware that my changes might be bollixing the AI.

 

[Duuk]

It's not a cheat. It's not a bug. It's the difference between a computer construct and a living, thinking creature.

If it makes you feel better, interpret the red items as meaning "By looking at this item you've already asked, and I said no. But because I'm so nice, I won't hold it against you." Voilà! Problem eliminated.

If that doesn't help -- well, you have access to the XML, the Python, and now the C++ code that make up practically all the game! Change it to suit your idea of How Things Ought To Be.

But what about the situations where you'd like to say, "I don't care if you'll say no. If you don't give it to me, I'll drop a catapult on your head."

The game won't let you. It's very annoying.

 

[Mutineer]

It is very consistent behavior. It compencate for AI poor jugement when to trade and putting consiquences on your actions toward AI.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

This issue was discussed at length on this thread.

My feeling, as I say in this thread, is that the red-out simply means that you asked and they said no. I think what bothers most people about this is that this eliminates the satisfaction of asking. Plus, I see a major exploit with humans being able to ask for anything. Making a -30 "You made an arrogant demand" modifier will force the AI to declare war on you. As you all know, being declared on is better for you in terms of war weariness. It would be an exploit if I could always have the AI declare war on me whenever I wanted.

The disadvantages with the current system are somewhat balanced IMO by the advantages you have over the AI. The AI never knows for sure what you're thinking, hence it asks for tribute etc to try to ascertain that. You can be an AIs friend one minute, and the next you're taking them over. A human usually knows when a war is coming with an AI, not so the other way around.

 

[Meffy]

But what about the situations where you'd like to say, "I don't care if you'll say no. If you don't give it to me, I'll drop a catapult on your head."

The game won't let you. It's very annoying.

Sure it will. He or she says no by marking in red. You drop catapults on his or her head. You just don't get to click on things in the diplo dialog, it's already done for you.

[edit] ... as aB already says. And has a good point concerning the exploitable loophole it would create.

 

[SLM]

[..] Making a -30 "You made an arrogant demand" modifier will force the AI to declare war on you. As you all know, being declared on is better for you in terms of war weariness. It would be an exploit if I could always have the AI declare war on me whenever I wanted.

Not so if the AI used the 'refusing to talk' during negatiations. If you asked for something a couple of times without result, the AI automatically closes the communication and won't speak to you for a couple of turns. Wasn't this feature in SMAC?

The disadvantages with the current system are somewhat balanced IMO by the advantages you have over the AI. The AI never knows for sure what you're thinking, hence it asks for tribute etc to try to ascertain that. You can be an AIs friend one minute, and the next you're taking them over. A human usually knows when a war is coming with an AI, not so the other way around.

You should still have the option "give me this or I'll declare war". The AI should be able to make the same demand.

 

[Beamup]

But what about the situations where you'd like to say, "I don't care if you'll say no. If you don't give it to me, I'll drop a catapult on your head."

The game won't let you. It's very annoying.

The game most certainly will let you. The red text is simply telling you ahead of time that they'll say no even to that. So you just go ahead and declare war.

The red text places absolutely no real limitation on the player. It's just telling you ahead of time that such a deal will be rejected no matter what. The only limitation is that you can't waste your time asking for deals that you already know will be declined. It's really quite silly and nonsensical to insist on doing it anyway.

So, let's review what the red text actually does:
- Gives you additional information
- Prevents you from wasting time making offers you already know will be refused

And that's ALL. It does not a single thing more than that. Complaining about either of those things just makes no sense at all.

Now, it might be nice to have the same option yourself. If there was a way to set certain trades that would be automatically refused, it could be used to cut down on the AI calling you up all the time to ask for stuff you won't give it no matter what it offers. This would indeed be convenient sometimes. But that's an entirely different question that would be fairly involved to do anything about.

 

[mjs0]

Sure it will. He or she says no by marking in red. You drop catapults on his or her head. You just don't get to click on things in the diplo dialog, it's already done for you.

[edit] ... as aB already says. And has a good point concerning the exploitable loophole it would create.

But the poor AI is left scratching it's head wondering why you declared war ("was it something I said? Something I did? Talk to me."). At least if the diplomatic exchange happens the AI will have some indication that you might be a little upset and liable to respond aggressively. Maybe the AI could learn from the whole episode...whoa where did that absurd thought come from, sorry 'bout that, back to reality.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

So, let's review what the red text actually does:
- Gives you additional information
- Prevents you from wasting time making offers you already know will be refused

And that's ALL. It does not a single thing more than that. Complaining about either of those things just makes no sense at all.

Completely agree. This red-out actually saves you time by glancing down the list of techs and seeing what is negotiable. I would be more annoyed by clicking on each one and seeing what happens.

You should still have the option "give me this or I'll declare war". The AI should be able to make the same demand.

Well you can do that, there's just not a specific button for it. If you want something you open by the trade table. If the item is red-out, you assume they said no, and declare war. Your request comes from the fact that you want the satisfaction of making an "or else" demand, as do we all. You just have to look past that.

Remember everyone, the AI needs a way to try and figure what you're thinking. How else is it going to do that? It distinguishes the human as friend or foe by asking these questions about joining wars, making tribute or lending help. It goes through all that trouble, just to know who's side you're on. Even after all that, you still have the option to back stab someone.

 

[Meffy]

mjs0: :-D

If the AIs could be rewritten to learn from experience, and to simulate emotional states in a more refined way, then I could see some value to such an option. But such a mod is light-years beyond what I have time for, and I probably wouldn't be able to do it anyway.

As it is, I figure the AIs don't care how you feel about them, they assume that you intend to see your flag over all of their cities and it's just a matter of when.