About Hidden Nationality

[WCH]

It kind of bugs me that Hidden Nationality, a promotion that should protect units, actually serves to make it so they can be attacked by everyone, including allies. I just had one of my allies killing my Nightwatch in my city. WTH?

This is because what Hidden Nationality does is makes the unit look like a barbarian. Would it be possible to instead make it look like... another civilization? Like a "disguise" feature that'd let you pick what civ you wanted the unit to masquarade as? And that civ could attack one of these units if discovered, but everyone but that civ would think it's actually theirs and treat it accordingly.

Probably not possible, just shooting it out there. It just seems pretty useless to have a promotion that just makes your units get killed by allies.

 

[tharg]

They seem to have trouble using roads or carrying cargo as well. I usually declare their nationality fairly quickly.

 

[suedenim]

It's annoying going the other way, too. I was sending a hunter on a ship to an ally on the other continent (just to go around and explore, see what they were up to). Just gave my ship a straight-line command to sail to the other port, and in four turns he arrived... and launched an amphibious attack on the Nightwatch dude there. It did not go well.

 

[Witzzard]

Hidden Nationality is more of an harrasment promotion.
I mean, what do you get through keepin' them HN when you're using them to defend your city? Enemies would attack them anyway, as barbar units would...

But you can harras civs you're in peace with, wich you could other ways not. Killing of their builders, so that you slow his city growth (and so on) down. Or you could try (and with a bit of thinking it's possible) to tear his defence apart before even declaring war. Or help some side in a war, without really entering (problem here again is, that even the side you're help would attack them, but that's part of the game).
Also it adds the possibility to get experience without a real war.
Sidar + HN can grant you more shades...

 

[slowcar]

you don't have to have any HN units, why complain about it?
i like it to attack workers with some HN unit

 

[Wyrmhero]

I had my solitary Nightwatch decimate the Malakim capital when he was on a forested hill (and was D.Elvish). He eventually got up to the 80XP area, with all five combat promotions, commando & woodsman II

 

[Bad Player]

Or help some side in a war, without really entering (problem here again is, that even the side you're help would attack them, but that's part of the game).

That makes me think that it would be good if you could secretly give material aid to another civ without anyone else knowing (they know if you do regular trade)... Perhaps you could declare nationality to just one other civ so they don't attack you but it allows you to attack another civ they are at war with.

 

[Ecofarm]

Be careful when completing a HN unit. I've almost lost Alaz when he was built and attacked that same turn (by AI - wolf riders IIRC) before I could do anything.

 

[popejubal]

Hidden Nationality is not a promotion that protects your units. Essentially, Hidden Nationality units are Pirates. They don't carry your flag and can (and will) attack any country's units.

I don't think you'd object to another Civ attacking pirates and that's exactly what your HN units are. Don't forget that your HN units can attack the AI's units even if you're currently friendly with them - it's a great way to take down AI score leaders without exposing yourself to the risks that come from declaring war. It's also the only way to take a unit over 100 XP without declaring war. (other than gaining XP from a hut - but how often is that going to happen?)

 

[Alzara]

I object a lot.

I build my first pirate and, before I can move it, some wolf riders from the Clan run into my port and dismantle the ship.

I'd totally have a ship like that guarded, and arrest/execute the goblins for mass vandalism in my port!

Al

 

[popejubal]

I object a lot.

I build my first pirate and, before I can move it, some wolf riders from the Clan run into my port and dismantle the ship.

I'd totally have a ship like that guarded, and arrest/execute the goblins for mass vandalism in my port!

Al

...except that if your soldiers are guarding it, then it's not a pirate. Imagine if some country were giving shelter to Osama bin Laden. If he's sneaking into their country and hiding, then the U.S. can't give them too hard of a time about it. If the U.S. finds him, they can't object to the U.S. arresting him and taking him away as a criminal, though.


If they actively protect bin Laden, however, then the U.S. has a legitimate reason to take hostile action against the country since bin Laden isn't a rogue criminal in that case, but a kind of agent of that country. That's why pretty much nobody complained when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan since the Taliban had granted official protection to Osama bin Laden.

 

[Alzara]

Except that it's a pirate ship. It is in port flying no flag and not being hostile. Outsiders have no right to come into a city and start destroying ships in port. It's illegal. Osama has no bearing on a boat in port.

Your example falls down when you compare it to two enemy civilisations. If two civs are at war and you are at peace with both, then it would annoy your government supremely if one came burning down ships of the other while they were resting in your port. Although this is technically possible in civ it is still a flaw.

Also, even if you somehow accept that random troops can enter another civilisations' ports and start burning ships down, there is the issue of one having JUST completed a pirate ship, only to have it destroyed before you can use it. How do they know it's a pirate ship? It has never left port, has no reputation, and the flag it flies is irrelevant. Again, very obviously a gross act of vandalism!

Al

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking that the promotion/tag I suggested to xienwolf would be very useful in such circumstances. Promotions with the "<bTeritorial>1</bTerritorial>" tag would block rival units from moving onto the same tile as the unit unless at war. One defender with this promotion could stop anyone from entering your ports and destroying the ships. I'm thinking it would be good to have a promotion with this tag that expires every turn, and to make a building that grants this to all units in the city.

 

[Kasdar]

I'm thinking that the promotion/tag I suggested to xienwolf would be very useful in such circumstances. Promotions with the "<bTeritorial>1</bTerritorial>" tag would block rival units from moving onto the same tile as the unit unless at war. One defender with this promotion could stop anyone from entering your ports and destroying the ships. I'm thinking it would be good to have a promotion with this tag that expires every turn, and to make a building that grants this to all units in the city.

The problem with this though is that it would make it near impossible to get a victory with religion, because your priests and such wouldnt be able to spread religion.

The better option -- if there is a way -- is to make it so an attack cannot take place in a city unless the attacking civ is at war with the owner of the city.

I object a lot.

I build my first pirate and, before I can move it, some wolf riders from the Clan run into my port and dismantle the ship.

I'd totally have a ship like that guarded, and arrest/execute the goblins for mass vandalism in my port!

Al

Thats another thing the barbarians and those allied with them like clan of embers should not be able to attack a hidden nationality unit -- as they have no idea it is not a barbarian unit itself -- This also goes for animals, as barbarians don't attack animals and vice-versa so they shouldn't attack your hidden nationality animals.

 

[popejubal]

Except that it's a pirate ship. It is in port flying no flag and not being hostile. Outsiders have no right to come into a city and start destroying ships in port. It's illegal. Osama has no bearing on a boat in port.

You don't seem to get the entire idea of "Pirate".

If you are Alzarania and I'm Jubalopolis and you're sheltering pirates that continually attack my ships/troops/whatever, then I'm either going to hunt down those pirates with your permission/support or I'm going to hunt them down without your permission and support. If it's a legitimate merchant ship, then I'm not going to go after it, but if it's an unlisted military ship that flies no national flag, but has the skull and crossbones instead, then I'm going to bomb the hell out of it since I know it's going to do the same to my units as soon as it gets the chance.

If you don't want your Hidden Nationality units attacked in your cities, then don't keep those Open Borders agreements with the civs that are attacking them. That's a big part of what Open Border do for you: allow you to attack an enemy civ/barbarian/pirate within that neutral civ's borders.

Also, even if you somehow accept that random troops can enter another civilisations' ports and start burning ships down,

...as long as they have an Open Borders agreement.

there is the issue of one having JUST completed a pirate ship, only to have it destroyed before you can use it. How do they know it's a pirate ship? It has never left port, has no reputation, and the flag it flies is irrelevant. Again, very obviously a gross act of vandalism!

And how do you know that cute, fuzzy little bear is going to attack you? It's just a happy little bear and hasn't threatened any humans up 'til now, so why not just leave it alone? Except that both you and the computer know that the animals are always hostile just like the pirate ship is always hostile.

Why is it fair for you to finish building a military unit at the end of you turn only to see it destroyed by an attacking AI with whom you're at war? It's the same thing. Every nation is at war with Hidden Nationality units. It's kind of the point of Hidden Nationality. It's what they're all about.

 

[WCH]

I definitely think it should be made so that if there's a stack of units, as long as at least one of them does not have hidden nationality, the others should not be attackable unless you're at war with the owner of the other units in the stack.

Think of it this way: they're currently in the custody of that unit. If you see a group of pirates being led by an authority figure, do you rush in and kill them all, or do you think "good! He captured some pirates, I hope they swing."

 

[Alzara]

Popejubal you seemed to miss my point entirely. I have JUST built a ship. It gets destroyed. Nobody knows what it is. It is a ship that has just been built in a shipyard. No reputation, probably no crew on board and definately nothing BROADCASTING it as a pirate.

Also, you might want to think on the fact that these are actually PRIVATEERS, for which you should probably familiarise yourself with the definition. Privateers are hired by a government to commit acts of piracy on your enemies. They were most certainly protected by the government. I.e. Sir Francis Drake the UK privateer. He was never attacked in British ports by the Spanish. The Spanish responsible would have been arrested for vandalism and probably also on the charge of murder if they killed anyone.

Open borders has nothing to do with it. IN REAL LIFE you cannot waltz into somebodys city and start burning down ships regardless of whether or not they are known pirates, and especially not if they are privateers working for the government in question. You can, however, engage "HN" warriors etc that are located in a city, though this would still probably be punishable by law (depending on the societies laws on violence).

Al

 

[xienwolf]

Personally I would just like to see it that no unit is HN while in a stack with any other unit that is not. It kinda broadcasts your alignment pretty clearly in that case.

 

[popejubal]

Popejubal you seemed to miss my point entirely. I have JUST built a ship. It gets destroyed. Nobody knows what it is. It is a ship that has just been built in a shipyard. No reputation, probably no crew on board and definately nothing BROADCASTING it as a pirate.

if it has no crew on board, then it's not going to have any combat value. In fact, during the time when it had no crew, it wasn't possible to attack it at all. Because it was in the production queue. At the end of your turn, it gets its crew of salty dogs and runs up the pirate flag.

[/quote]Also, you might want to think on the fact that these are actually PRIVATEERS, for which you should probably familiarise yourself with the definition. Privateers are hired by a government to commit acts of piracy on your enemies. They were most certainly protected by the government. I.e. Sir Francis Drake the UK privateer. He was never attacked in British ports by the Spanish. The Spanish responsible would have been arrested for vandalism and probably also on the charge of murder if they killed anyone.[/quote]

He was never attacked in British ports because the British hadn't signed an Open Borders treaty with the Spanish. Mostly because they were at on-again, off-again war with the Spanish. Partly because of things like licensing Privateers to loot Spanish galleons.

Also, Privateers were only ever licensed to attack ships of countries which were at war with the government in question. It's pretty well acknowledged that Privateers were only ever Pirates with a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

Open borders has nothing to do with it. IN REAL LIFE you cannot waltz into somebodys city and start burning down ships regardless of whether or not they are known pirates, and especially not if they are privateers working for the government in question.

Actually, the United States does that all the time. IN REAL LIFE. Sometimes we are invited to do so, often we are not. IN REAL LIFE.

You can, however, engage "HN" warriors etc that are located in a city, though this would still probably be punishable by law (depending on the societies laws on violence).

And if any country allows the CIA to operate within their borders (i.e. has Open Borders with the United States), then their HN warriors, etc are engaged by U.S. agents as often as the U.S. agents can identify and find them. And if the country in question tries to support those HN warriors, then we have a tendancy to lob a few cruise missiles into the country to remind them of what happens to countries that sponsor terrorists (i.e. the current term for what we used to call pirates).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking that in my modmod I'll probably remove HN from Privateers and make them <bAlwaysHostile>1</bAlwaysHostile> instead. Pirate Ships (which will be both Lanun and barbarian UUs) would still be HN, and might be able to regain the promotions fairly easily.


I'm thinking that I might remove Privateers and Pirates as distinct units, making them promotions granted through crew-type spells instead. Most civs would have a "Letters of Mark" promotion (xienwolf, you are going to add <bAlwaysHostile> to promotions in a modmod soon, right?), but the Lanun version would instead grant a Pirate promotion. This would be just like HN (including the ability to declare nationality) but also grant gold from combat (unless xienwolf adds this ability too I'll probably have to use <PythonPostCombatWon> for this).

I'm thinking it could be interesting if any ship in a Pirates Cove/Harbor/Port, regardless of the Owner, could cast a spell that grants this promotion (probably costing a little gold); of course, there is a good change (if not Lanun, a very good chance) that your new pirate crew will commender your ship and have no loyalty to you (i.e, the ship will become a barbarian unit instead of just looking barbarian to you rivals)