[GS] about power plant and range

[Takfloyd]

I'm in game now to check. The coal plant production doesn't actually spread to the next city. My city of Amsterdam is getting +4 from coal plant (which is my adjacency) and +5 from factory (because it is powered). Utrecht (which is within 6 tiles) is getting +5 from Amsterdam's factory, but nothing from their coal plant. It was +2, so I am at least happy the increased factory production spreads and went from +2 to +5, but nothing from the coal plant. Which is what the tooltips say, only oil and nuclear spread. I haven't built enough of the latter in my games to really experiment which works best for maximum production. I may do so in my Netherlands game, just trying to get caught up to the AI right now. So what I'm wondering, should I build a factory and coal plant in Utrecht as well? Assuming I don't later go for oil/nuclear of course. But they have the problem I mentioned above of being used by so many units. I only have 3 coal (1 resource) this game, so I probably won't build anything else in Utrecht. I am limited on land this game.

Victoria thought you were talking about power rather than the intrinsic production boost of the Coal Plant. We all know the adjacency bonus of the Coal Plant doesn't spread to nearby cities.

 

[HermannLombard]

Just a thought regarding production from the power plant and not just from the factory: perhaps this represents production from smaller businesses in the region, not just the heavy industry.

 

[Victoria]

perhaps this represents production from smaller businesses in the region, not just the heavy industry

It is always worth considering all options... the question is... did you convince yourself or not?
@Infixo will get the tests done soonish

Edit:...

just make sure that it requires >1 coal or oil, so like Factory + 1 T3 building.

ummm putting an IZ with factory in the reciever is a fail because it will use local first... I'll bang in 2 T3's

... also @Infixo ... is this going to annoy you? ... because it seems to be affecting the uranium result already

EDIT: Looks like it is applied separately anyway

 

[Victoria]

@Infixo results are in.
I had a power plant & factory at source so 2 local used. I had a Research Lab and Stadium at target needing 6.
I could see a clear pattern so to add another test I added a wind farm at source to change power requirements as extra validation.
Naturally 1 uranium used per turn while 2 of the others
Odd things1 - The first 2 turns the climate effect is less... weird.
Odd things2 - 4 times during the tests the climate screen failed to update but it was easy enough to estimate.
Looks like we have kw/h carbon output as Suspected... and full unit usage due to renewable added proving no change.

Pretty Format

Paste format
Turn Nuke Oil Coal
7 0 1 3
8 0 3 6
9 1 7 13
10 2 11 19
11 3 15 26
12 3 19 32
13 4 23 39
14 5 27 45
15 6 31 52
16 6 35 59
17 7 39 65
18 8 43 72
19 9 47 78
20 9 50 85
21 10 54 91
22 11 58 98
23 12 62 104
24 12 66 111
25 13 70 118
26 14 74 124
27 15 78 131
28 16 82 137
29 16 86 144
30 17 90 150

 

[taulph88]

I don't know if it's me, but I queued up two coal plants in my cities, and after the factory is built in both of them, they go missing! The coal plants are not built and they're not in the building list and they're not in the queue. Am I missing something or did I stumble on a bug?

 

[Sostratus]

I don't know if it's me, but I queued up two coal plants in my cities, and after the factory is built in both of them, they go missing! The coal plants are not built and they're not in the building list and they're not in the queue. Am I missing something or did I stumble on a bug?

Are you using one of those mods that allows you to queue multiple tiers of buildings for a district? (Ex: Queue up market and a bank instead of having to wait for the market to finish.) It's probably an issue with the mod if so. I have built hundreds of coal plants and never had an issue yet.

 

[taulph88]

No, I'm definitely not using any mods.

 

[Sostratus]

No, I'm definitely not using any mods.

Has the world congress passed a resolution banning coal plants?
They do that from time to time. It goes away after the next world congress session.

 

[taulph88]

You know, that could be it. Probably buried in all the active proposals that I didn't bother to check. Thanks!

 

[bonafide11]

There's a lot of great, useful info here, but can someone sum it up a little bit? When should you build what?

 

[Victoria]

@Infixo can you look at the data?
@bonafide11 all in good time. My fingers are too sore ATM and we are not there yet. Most of what we have done has just validated what is in the civilopaedia. Someone else feel free to.

 

[Sostratus]

There's a lot of great, useful info here, but can someone sum it up a little bit? When should you build what?

Basically

1) Power generation
Plants will generate as much power as they need to to supply whatever demand exists for any City Center in their radius. This radius starts at 6 tiles and is affected by Mexico City's suzerain bonus as well as Nikola Tesla, the great engineer.
It only matters that the plant aura can reach the city center; the individual districts themselves can be anywhere.
Plants do not consume fuel just for existing. They have to be supplying power.

2) Fuel consumption
Fuel is used based on whole units. If you build a nuclear plant and it only powers one factory, it will still burn a unit of uranium. The extra 14 power just goes to waste from a fuel perspective (but not an emissions perspective, see below.)
Fuel use is based on each plant supplying power. (Some plants may not be supplying any and use no fuel.)
If you have two far apart cities each with a nuke plant, and they only each supply their factory for 2 power a piece, each nuke plant has to burn fuel to supply that power. Because a plant can use a minimum of 1 fuel, this means you end up using 2 fuel. If one plant covered both city centers, then you'd only need 1 fuel.

If you have multiple types of plants, which plant gets used is based on an order of priority:
Largest Stockpile of Resource
if a tie then
Largest resource income after unit usage
if a tie then
Most advanced power source (Nuke>oil>coal)

This can mean that if you have a full stockpile of everything, it will pick your biggest income - likely coal or oil- and use that. If you want to force the game to use nuclear power, you have to reduce your stockpile and reduce your income. The only ways to do this are to create coal burning units (counterproductive if you want to reduce emissions) or to rip up your coal mines. If you get lots of coal from city states then you are just SoL.

3) Emissions
CO2 is created based on how much Power Load is satisfied by a resource, as well as what resource is burned to satisfy it. Coal is much dirtier than oil, which is much dirtier than uranium, per unit burned. Because uranium produces 4x the power per fuel unit, it effectively produces a tiny amount of emissions compared to coal. Units that use fuel, by comparison, are always using the whole unit. Currently AFAIK there's no difference in emissions between using 1 coal to supply 4 power in a coal plant vs having a battleship consume 1 coal per turn. @Victoria did anyone test units at all?

4) Plant production auras
All auras in the game currently allow 1 instance to apply, and it will pick the highest value for which aura to go with when multiple overlap. This is why you can have lots of factories at +5 aura, and use tesla somewhere, and suddenly see the cities near that IZ have +7 from factory. There is no double counting of local and external auras. The auras for coal, oil, and nuke do not stack.** They are all treated as the same class of power plant aura. The highest is used. For example, if City A has a coal plant that gives +2, and is in range of an oil plant in city B, it will actually get the +3 from the oil plant. If both cities and in range of a nuke plant, then they will get +4 prod instead from the Nuke Aura.
**The nuclear plant has a +3 science aura. This is treated as a separate thing from the production auras and so it always applies to any city in range of a nuke plant. You don't need to make a weird matrix of oil and nuke and coal to maximize things. You can use nuke plants if you really want to min-max your science, but by that late in the game it's not as impactful so don't sweat it too much.

Which aura is used for production purposes has nothing to do with power generation. The production effects are provided if if you run out of the resource or aren't burning fuel.
Coal plants are local only; even with aura boosting effects like Tesla, they will never actually project their bonus.

 

[Infixo]

Here's the formula for how the CO2 footprint is calculated and shown in ClimateScreen.

First, the game tracks how many resources each player used. This is not shown on ClimateScreen however because ofc why would anyone want to know that? <end sarcasm>
Then:
actual_resource_footprint = num_resources_used * power_provided * CO2perkWh, data from table Resource_Consumption is used.
resource_footprint = math.floor(actual_resource_footprint/1000)

Example (from @Victoria test data):
turn 30 Oil footprint 90: for 23 turns, each turn 2 res were used, so 46 => generated total 184 kWh => footprint 90160 => climate screen will show 90
turn 30 Uranium co2 17: for 23 turns, each turn 1 res was used, so 23 => generated total 368 kWh => footprint 17664 => shown 17

If you want to see how many resources were consumed in total, then change the line 745 in ClimateScreen into:

uiResource.Icon:SetToolTipString( string.format("%s %d", resourceName, GameClimate.GetPlayerResourceConsumption(m_playerID, kResourceInfo.Index)) );

So, now I can add CO2 footprint for each city in Better Report Screen

 

[Victoria]

resource_footprint = math.floor(actual_resource_footprint/1000)

So question, when deforestation suddenly changes to 30% does the LUA change all climactic change by 30%... that would explain a massive increase people claim.
... great work BTW thanks!
@Sostratus
Great write up, very detailed. Thanks. I did test units and they do burn and units take fuel before cities. What test if any do you want?

 

[Disgustipated]

1) Power generation
Plants will generate as much power as they need to to supply whatever demand exists for any City Center in their radius. This radius starts at 6 tiles and is affected by Mexico City's suzerain bonus as well as Nikola Tesla, the great engineer.
It only matters that the plant aura can reach the city center; the individual districts themselves can be anywhere.
Plants do not consume fuel just for existing. They have to be supplying power.

2) Fuel consumption
Fuel is used based on whole units. If you build a nuclear plant and it only powers one factory, it will still burn a unit of uranium. The extra 14 power just goes to waste from a fuel perspective (but not an emissions perspective, see below.)
Fuel use is based on each plant supplying power. (Some plants may not be supplying any and use no fuel.)
If you have two far apart cities each with a nuke plant, and they only each supply their factory for 2 power a piece, each nuke plant has to burn fuel to supply that power. Because a plant can use a minimum of 1 fuel, this means you end up using 2 fuel. If one plant covered both city centers, then you'd only need 1 fuel.

If you have multiple types of plants, which plant gets used is based on an order of priority:
Largest Stockpile of Resource
if a tie then
Largest resource income after unit usage
if a tie then
Most advanced power source (Nuke>oil>coal)

This can mean that if you have a full stockpile of everything, it will pick your biggest income - likely coal or oil- and use that. If you want to force the game to use nuclear power, you have to reduce your stockpile and reduce your income. The only ways to do this are to create coal burning units (counterproductive if you want to reduce emissions) or to rip up your coal mines. If you get lots of coal from city states then you are just SoL.

3) Emissions
CO2 is created based on how much Power Load is satisfied by a resource, as well as what resource is burned to satisfy it. Coal is much dirtier than oil, which is much dirtier than uranium, per unit burned. Because uranium produces 4x the power per fuel unit, it effectively produces a tiny amount of emissions compared to coal. Units that use fuel, by comparison, are always using the whole unit. Currently AFAIK there's no difference in emissions between using 1 coal to supply 4 power in a coal plant vs having a battleship consume 1 coal per turn. @Victoria did anyone test units at all?

4) Plant production auras
All auras in the game currently allow 1 instance to apply, and it will pick the highest value for which aura to go with when multiple overlap. This is why you can have lots of factories at +5 aura, and use tesla somewhere, and suddenly see the cities near that IZ have +7 from factory. There is no double counting of local and external auras. The auras for coal, oil, and nuke do not stack.** They are all treated as the same class of power plant aura. The highest is used. For example, if City A has a coal plant that gives +2, and is in range of an oil plant in city B, it will actually get the +3 from the oil plant. If both cities and in range of a nuke plant, then they will get +4 prod instead from the Nuke Aura.
**The nuclear plant has a +3 science aura. This is treated as a separate thing from the production auras and so it always applies to any city in range of a nuke plant. You don't need to make a weird matrix of oil and nuke and coal to maximize things. You can use nuke plants if you really want to min-max your science, but by that late in the game it's not as impactful so don't sweat it too much.

Which aura is used for production purposes has nothing to do with power generation. The production effects are provided if if you run out of the resource or aren't burning fuel.
Coal plants are local only; even with aura boosting effects like Tesla, they will never actually project their bonus.

excellent

 

[Infixo]

So question, when deforestation suddenly changes to 30% does the LUA change all climactic change by 30%... that would explain a massive increase people claim.

I think this part i.e. CO2 footprint from Resources (and Players imo) is not affected by deforestation. It just shows how much historically somebody polluted.
These numbers accumulate each turn, and this is where deforestation modifier is applied. Also, projects to remove CO2 work here. Then the final number is calculated which is compared with map data to see if temperature has increased. This may trigger other effects like sea level increase. Unfortunately this final number, i.e. current, actual global level of CO2, is not exposed to Lua.

 

[aggri1]

Thanks for the summary sostratus.

Basically

1) Power generation
Plants will generate as much power as they need to to supply whatever demand exists for any City Center in their radius. This radius starts at 6 tiles and is affected by Mexico City's suzerain bonus as well as Nikola Tesla, the great engineer.
It only matters that the plant aura can reach the city center; the individual districts themselves can be anywhere.

However, I got here searching for info' about renewables (just got GS recently). Why was my useless desert city full of solar panels not supplying the neighbouring production city?

Then I discover that for some reason known only to Firaxis, solar and wind plants only supply their own cities. Uh... Do the developers think solar-derived electrons are somehow different from thermal-derived electrons and hence can't go through a grid? Stupid.

So perhaps might be worth noting that somewhere, though I realise that renewable sources weren't part of the discussion to this point.

Cheers!