About the Spanish Civilization?

Fabman

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Jan 10, 2002
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La Corunia, Galicia, Spain
Anyone thinks that the spanish civilization should be included in this version?, I mean, I don't wanna seem too patriotic, but.... the spanish were the owners of a good part of the world in de 14th century... and they included the Iroquais?... that's ridiculous..... :lol:
 
Bienvenido!

There is a spanish forum at Apolyton:
Spanish Civ2 Forum

There has been much discussion about making a Spanish civ for a Civ3 expansion pack, among many other topics.
 
I agree the Spanish should be in there certainly ahead of Iriquios or Zulu (who only conquered a small part of Africa).

What about the Protugese and the Dutch as well? They were definetly expansionist and commerce motivated cultures - look at their influence in South America and the Pacific.

I actually think they should start a Civ based on the Catholic religion - they have been around for thousands of years, have property in almost every city and country in the world, have vast amounts of money, and elite guard (albeit for show), and they have certainly been a shaping force in world politics for centuries.

Their special unit is the aide worker who infiltrates enemy cities and converts the citizens while claiming to do 'humanitarian' work, and their properties are religious (obviously) and expansionist.
 
Yep!, I forgot those civilizations, portuguese were almost as expansionistic as the spanish and the dutch were a bit late in their expansion over north america and asia, but quite important too.
 
Portuguese were crucial to the western civilization as we know it, even more than spanish and dutch:
- They were the first to look to the sea as a way of expanding their territory. They launched their ships into the unknown with astonishing results. Gama's voyage, Cabral's discovery of Brazil, Magellan's (Magalhaes in portuguese) voyage, etc, etc, etc.

All of this resulted in a new world being discovered and colonized (i'm not talking about america only, but also all of the eastern world which had been out of touch for centuries). India, Malaca, Japan, Africa, South America...all of this suddenly became available thanks to the portuguese discoveries. Spanish, English and Dutch came after to claim their share...

I am, of course, portuguese...
:D
 
I think all the Colonial powers have strong arguments for why they should be included as a Civ.

Spanish
Dutch
Carthoginians
Mongols
Assyrians
Turks
Celts
Aryans
Guptas
Seljuk Turks
Inkas
Tumirids
Franks (who later became France and Prussia)
Austrian-Hungarian
Irish (if you remove whisky from the world)

All would be great empires to add to the game. Personally I would prefer that each time you have a revolution you become a new civ.

i.e.
Celt -> Frank -> French/German
Roman -> British -> US

Lord knows the "Chinese" civilization is all about revolution and dynastic change. Personally I think the Chinese have a better claim on Religious and Industrious. They seem to weather governmental change much better than their european counterparts. I would argue against scientific because even though they had a HUGE tech advantage in Polo's time that was countered by the fierce isolationisim and a caste system that hampered scientific experimentation for over 1000 years.
 
If there is an expansion pack, I'd wager they'd be in it. Well, we live in hope.

I understand the need for cultural/geographical balance in the game, but excluding the Spanish is rather dubious.
 
First... ok, magalhaes was portuguese... but... he did what he did under the spanish flag, 'cos spain did the tordesillas treat and that was an inpediment in the spanish expansion to the west, that's why magalhaes offer that trip to the spanish civilization, I don't give a fu** either if Colon ( colombus ) was italian or spanish, again... the civilization that risk their money and wealth was the spanish, ok... the portuguese take a risk on their trip to brazil... but... if you read a bit of history... brazil was discovered... the 22 of april of 1500, 8 years after spain have put their step on america. About the east, definitely portugal beat spain in that region... but you can't forget that the spanish were there too... Philipines.. etc...
 
Originally posted by Fabman
First... ok, magalhaes was portuguese... but... he did what he did under the spanish flag, 'cos spain did the tordesillas treat and that was an inpediment in the spanish expansion to the west, that's why magalhaes offer that trip to the spanish civilization, I don't give a fu** either if Colon ( colombus ) was italian or spanish, again... the civilization that risk their money and wealth was the spanish, ok... the portuguese take a risk on their trip to brazil... but... if you read a bit of history... brazil was discovered... the 22 of april of 1500, 8 years after spain have put their step on america. About the east, definitely portugal beat spain in that region... but you can't forget that the spanish were there too... Philipines.. etc...

Spain put a lot of money to discover something...that was already discovered ! Colombo's jorney, as Cabral's jorney later, were just the "official" discoveries of north america and brasil. North America was first discovered by Gaspar Corte-Real some years before Colombo.

All the investment necessary to start such voyages was never done by the spanish ! It was always the work of portuguese (don't you find it strange that colombo's voyage is the only relevant discovery voyage ever made by the spanish ? All the others were made by portuguese...), wich supports the theory that colombo was making just the "official" discovery.
 
Originally posted by Dario


Spain put a lot of money to discover something...that was already discovered ! Colombo's jorney, as Cabral's jorney later, were just the "official" discoveries of north america and brasil. North America was first discovered by Gaspar Corte-Real some years before Colombo.

All the investment necessary to start such voyages was never done by the spanish ! It was always the work of portuguese (don't you find it strange that colombo's voyage is the only relevant discovery voyage ever made by the spanish ? All the others were made by portuguese...), wich supports the theory that colombo was making just the "official" discovery.

Corte Real Sailed in the Year 1500. Seven years after Columbus returned from the new world. He never returned from his voyage... how can you call some one the discoverer of something if you can't even prove he made it there?

[link]http://collections.ic.gc.ca/placentia/gaspar.htm[/link]

According to Dr. F.F. Lopes (1957) Corte Real received a charter from King Manuel of Portugal on May 12, 1500 to discover and claim jurisdiction over lands in the New World. That summer he left Lisbon with one ship, possibly picking up another ship at the island of Terceira. Upon reaching North American Shores Corte Real found a land full of large trees and fertile soil. This land he
named Greenland or Terra Verte. B.G. offaman(1961) states that "From the description of the "Terra Verte' or Land of Corte Real' to be found in the Cantino and Pasqualigo, as well as in the accounts by Galcano and Goes, and in the 'Iocalize general de todas ilas del mundo,' localized Corte Real's explorations as having taken place in the Newfoundland area."
 
I'm quoting from an internet site...


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Controversial findings are pointing to the fact that the Portuguese and not the Spanish galleons of Christopher Columbus, discovered the United States of America.

If the findings of Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, Portuguese medical doctor and investigator, prove to be true, the history of America shall have to be rewritten. Dr. da Silva has lived in Rhode Island, U.S.A. for the last 40 years. He is presently presenting his theory in conferences (he has conducted over 300) throughout Portugal and America.

According to his extensive research the Portuguese found their way to the Americas prior to the 22nd of August 1424, a whopping 68 years before Columbus accidentally stumbled on the "New Land." History reveals that Columbus was the first European to set foot in the Americas. He was on his way to India and thought he had arrived via the East when in fact he "stumbled" on America on the 12th of October 1492. Dr. da Silva uses some very convincing arguments proving that contrary to popular belief, Columbus arrived over half a century too late to claim him as being the first.

Using a nautical map and scroll drawn up by Zuanne Pizzigano dated 1424, archaeological and toponimical proofs, Dr. da Silva elaborately contests history. The nautical map, a part of the James Bell Ford collection at the University of Minnesota, reveals the contours of the "Terra Nova" and "Nova Escocia" as well as several islands in the Caribbean sea. Several other places in Central America are easily identified.

Another convincing piece of evidence presented by Dr. da Silva is the Stone of Dighton discovered at the mouth of River Taunton in Massachusetts. Professor Edmund Delabarre of the Brown University identified many important inscriptions on this stone in 1918. The 40 ton stone bears the name, Miguel Corte Real, the date 1511, and the Portuguese coat of arms, as well the symbol of the Portuguese Order of Christ. This stone had been submerged by water for many years.

A final piece of evidence presented is a list of 92 names compiled by Canadian Reverend George Patterson. He states that the 92 names of places and people in Canada date back to Portuguese origins. Examples are: Bacalhao, Fogo, Minas, Ilha das Gamas, Portugal, Porto Novo, etc. In studies carried out among the ancient Indian tribes, they reveal that Portugal was indeed the first European presence in Canada, and several tribes attribute their name to the Portuguese national emblem.

Portugal now waits patiently for the cross examinations from those with the power to correct historical errors. Should this theory prove correct, Portugal becomes the uncontested master of the sea, the country with the richest navigational history, and the one that discovered more countries of the known world than any other nation.
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Why do i think this theory makes sense ? Because to me is odd that spain, a continental power, would suddenly decide to finance such a high risk event like columbus voyage, unless...they already knew that there was something there to be discovered.
Portugal had no choice but to explore the sea, at the time...spain is a different story, because spain already was a continental super power back then...they had much more to gain investing in european continental warfare and conquest than to spend their money sending ships and sailors to their deaths.

;)
 
actually theres good evidance that America was discovered way before the 15th centuary as early as the 8th with Vikings from Greenland. Its without a doubt the CC was definetly not the 1st to discover it
 
Spain should have definetly been included. They conqurered and controled most of the Americas at one time. They conquered one of the other civs that were included, the Aztecs. The Portugese should also have been included, for their navigational accompliments, like discovering a sea route to India. Some sort of muslim nation should too have been concluded, like the Turks. It was because of the Turks blocking off trade routes to China that caused European nations to go to sea. Araqbic numbers, which we use, are the ones we use today. The Incas, too, should have been included. They had a complex system of roads, in mountains no less, and had used the # zero before Europe. Continuing my rantings, the Vikings should have been included. Most of northern Europe feared them at one time. They occupied England, discovered Iceland, Greenland, and N. America. Evidnece suggests that they got as far inland as Minnesota (Thus the Minnesota Vikings).

Some may argue that Iroquios should not have been used. They managed to be independent from European rule for more than 200 years, which is very long looking at how long other indigineous tribes existed against them. Their Iroquios Leage agreement may have been one of the many models for the US constitution
 
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