About the WW2 scenario that comes with the game...

AmnesiaA

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
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71
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Canada
This scenario is actually a alot of fun, and I've spent actually an entire week playing it--I haven't even had a 'real' game yet, I've only been doing this single scenario--but there are three things I am generally annoyed with on this scenario.

Could someone maybe edit the scenario to remove some worker abilities, pillaging--except for those done by planes--AND especially barbarians?

The reason for the first is that usually by the year 1942 turkey and spain suddenly declare war on someone. I don't remember spain declaring war on the allies and taking over libya being in the history books. I also don't remember Turkey declaring war on the Third Riech and marching into athens. The reason for this comes from the fact that both Turkey and Spain have the best land on the entire map--aside maybe from the Third Riech--and quickly, due to the workers ability to make farms and towns, become the most powerful countries in the game. This is asinine in my opinion. In history Spain and Turkey were mostly just neutral countries that stood there, not world powers that suddenly swept down into Africa guns a blazing. Also by the year 1942 usually, the third reich and italy, due to their isolated position, end up having a landscape of towns. This gives them such an incredible amount of power that it is nearly impossible to make the attack on siciliy near the time it actually happened--in one game, with my best efforts, it didn't happen until late 1944, and even then I failed. (And I won't even mention the worker stuff Vichy France did that resulted in a world power only beat by Spain!)
So if you're going to edit the workers, just give them the ability to create mines, roads, railways, those oil things, farms, winaries, and pasters. This will allow you to still have fun with pillaging and resource mining, but it won't allow you to fill your landscape up with towns to such a scale as to make the balance very off toward the end--having an entire continent full of towns is a very powerful thing. It also will prevent the deadly rise of spain and turkey as world powers toward the end--due to the now present money handicap which comes from having no towns-- since their sudden delcarations of war are VERY annoying.

The reason for the first second is it is a pain when those on my team--the AI is somewhat stupid, still--runs into enemy territory, pillages the landscape to hell, and makes making an effective attack or defense by me--I am usually the one leading ALL of the attacks--almost impossible. I wish I could tell them 'Don't pillage the roads, damnit!' so I wouldn't have so much handicaps later on. Airplane pillages are fine though since that can't destroy road systems.

The third is obvious. There are small areas on the map not owned by any country--such as south of Vichy France--and powerful barbarians kept appearing from there, foiling attacks and defenses on both sides, and generally ruining the entire assault on Vichy France. Just do away with the barbarians completely please.

I kept having to go into world builder to keep an even balance on my later games, such as destroying towns, neutralizing Turkey/Spain, and destroying the barbarians. But personally it was a nusance doing so, and the AI also became very handicapped since it kept trying to reverse my changes. If someone can somehow make these changes, I'd much appreciate it :)

*edit* Thought you could also change other things. Just make it so Spain and Turkey remain realitively distant trading partners, and countries from both sides--vichy france especially--are given some kind of handicap to prevent them from having a stupdily big army. I'll admit that Germany, the allies--america--and maybe Britian shouldn't have strong handicapes, but Italy, Vichy France, and Free France, shouldn't have so much incredible power. I remember the later battles in Africa between Britian and Rommel, basically. In the game it was between Britian and Vichy France. Germany actually didn't seem to do much. (Also on another note, and this may be a bug. I remember one of the civics saying that there would be NO war wariness, but this doesn't seem to happen, and usually by 1943 all my cities are rioting, and so is the other side.)
 
I'd be very interested in hearing how you're loading the scenario, because in the months I've being playing Desert War I've never seen a barbarian.

Also, about Spain and Turkey:
Germany spent a lot of time and effort to make friends with Franco, supporting him in the civil war in the late 30's, and requesting access to move through Spain to Gibralter. Also, Turkey almost became Germany's next target to get to middle-east oil. They chose to go through Egypt rather than Turkey as they thought it would be easier. So Spain and Turkey, though in history were neutral in the war, could quite easily have been a different story. Remember, Spain pretended friendship to Germany, and Turkey allowed US bombers to base in their lands.

Dale
 
Good point about Turkey and Spain though, but there's one more point missed. Because both of those countries have the best land in the game, they end up having the most powerful military in the game, and then suddenly launch themselves on a conquest of the world. In one game Turkey even took over Free France and the Suez, catching everyone completely by surprise--we were in Vichy France. I know the units of both countries are already handicapped, but I think the countries should have further handicaps so they would be forced to either keep their neutrality or fight short wars. That would be far more realistic to history since Turkey and Spain at this time didn't have a grandiose military.

And also Vichy France should get a handicap. They end up becoming way too powerful due to their realitive isolation in the early parts of the scenario. Operation Torch for me did nothing. (And also give a handicap to Free France just to be fair.)

(Don't give really any handicap to Italy, Third Riech, Allies, and Britian, since those four nations are always activly fighting in the game. )

And as for the Barbarians, you know that tiny little area right below Free France were it's desert? That's where the barbarians in all my games are appearing, and often very early too. Now when I play the game I always make sure to go ingame and block out that entire area with quicksand, and problem solved!
 
What you're probably seeing with Vichy France is the result of Germany/Italy trading oil to them (as VF doesn't have one of their own). Use Crete (Iraklion) and Malta to base strategic bombers on to keep the Italian and German oil wells destroyed.

It's worth it as it limits VF to infantry. :)

Also, as the Allies player build up fighters/bombers and tanks in Gibralter. When Torch comes around then land the initial troops and use the transports to bring the tanks over. The bombers should be destroying farms/cottages/resources and the fighters hitting anyone who moves from the time they're built.

You need to prepare for Torch. You didn't think we'd just hand it to you on a silver platter do you? ;)

Dale
 
With Spain and Turkey, you need to keep diplomacy going with them. Either frighten them into following you, or pay them to join you. It works, the AI sure as hell does it. ;)

Dale
 
I do prepare for torch though, but like you said Vichy France gets strong due to oil. I am also starting my game off as often the allies, vichy france, third riech, or free france. And since I've never been Britian yet, I haven't been able to really try out your techniques for keeping the axis subdued. I may try Brtiain then just to give that a shot--you know, so I don't have to wait forever to do an amphidious attack.

As for Turkey and Spain, often I am so poor due to battling--I usually clear northern Africa by the start of 1943--I can't bribe them to my side. I guess I'll have to figure out how to keep them on my step then.

(As for the Barbarians, ugh)
 
Yeah, the barbs are a new one for me (never seen them).

And yes, definitely try as the poms! They're the most fun (as are the Italians). As the poms you can go for a fast conquest of Libya thus limiting VF buildup, or try to spread the wings with an invasion of Iraklion then Greece. Also, build as many cottages aroung the place as possible. That brings your money up fast. Also so do the right civics.

Even if all you can do is 5gp per turn to Spain and Turkey, it keeps them friendly. :)

If you're up to a fight and a surprise, hit Naples with everything you have as soon as possible. ;)

Another way to limit VF is take the conquest slow (concentrate on Libya and Greece) and get a bigger team score than the Axis for the "Liberation of Paris" event in mid-44.

In one game as the Allies, I took on Spain with some decent success. :D

Dale
 
Hey good, I'll try your techniques out. I guess I've just been too busy doing this the hard way. As for the barbarians, I solved that by making that small area they kept appearing in blocked.
 
What I'm most impressed by, is the amount of time Firaxis/2k spent upon this simulation... like the appearance of the units and the map.

NOT.

:rolleyes:

Its so darn BUTT ugly, and such that I can't even try it for fear of how disappointed I'll be.
 
Nuh Uh said:
What I'm most impressed by, is the amount of time Firaxis/2k spent upon this simulation... like the appearance of the units and the map.

NOT.

:rolleyes:

Its so darn BUTT ugly, and such that I can't even try it for fear of how disappointed I'll be.

Are you talking about graphics? The graphics used are the same as the standard game, so I'm not really sure what you mean.

And btw, Firaxis didn't make it - Dale, Locutus and I did. Feel free to hate it, but if you haven't even tried it, i'll feel free to ignore your comments. :)
 
Isak said:
Are you talking about graphics? The graphics used are the same as the standard game, so I'm not really sure what you mean.

And btw, Firaxis didn't make it - Dale, Locutus and I did. Feel free to hate it, but if you haven't even tried it, i'll feel free to ignore your comments. :)

Well, I will say that I'm sorry for any offense taken. But, yes, its aesthetically abhorrent to me. Please make the Axis look like the Axis, and please make the Allies look like the Allies.

As far as the playability - I already know that, by my definition of playability, its not. Especially with regard to Afrika Corps - the ONLY reason Rommel lost is because there wasn't enough SUPPLY. And, forgive me for saving my breath, but enough said.
 
I can't help but say that I am disagreeing with the playability of this scenario now. This time I took a shot at playing the brits instead of the allies and I am not impressed. By August 1941 I had half of northern africa under my hands, and by February of 1942 I had all of northern africa and was now assaulting Italy. It was dead easy too. Of course it wasn't this easy when I was playing as the allies since the AI obviously is ********--I have no clue how it kept losing.

But the biggest reason for this is the lack of the Third Riech. I am not having trouble with Turkey and Spain anymore, but I am also having no trouble with Germany. If Germany had a constant presence on Northern Africa I would have had a challange. If I'd make one change to this scenario, I would add at least one German city in northern africa--maybe Tripoli. Without a constant German presence in northern africa this scenario is just so easy! Where's the grand battle between Rommell and the British army? Where's the German battle of El Alamein? Oh wait, it's not there because the German presence in this scenario is incredibly limited. (One city in northern africa controlled by germany wouldn't hurt)

Also I am playing on noble difficulty setting.
 
Anyways as much as I have complaints for this scenario, that of which are mostly on the fault of the AI's bad planning now, I would like to play this scenario online with someone. If Britian and the Third Reich have a human player to them the scenario would be a lot better...

If someone out there who has a lot of time on their hands wants to take a crack at playing this online, leave a private message? :)
 
Nuh Uh said:
Well, I will say that I'm sorry for any offense taken. But, yes, its aesthetically abhorrent to me. Please make the Axis look like the Axis, and please make the Allies look like the Allies.

You create the units and other artwork, and I'll be happy to implement them.

As far as the playability - I already know that, by my definition of playability, its not. Especially with regard to Afrika Corps - the ONLY reason Rommel lost is because there wasn't enough SUPPLY. And, forgive me for saving my breath, but enough said.
Looking at your sig, I can see that Supply is a personal agenda of yours, so I'm sure you already know that adding such a concept isn't possible until the SDK is released.

It is present in a simulated fashion though (and this is partially in response to AmnesiaA as well), simply by not giving the Reich any cities on the African continent, so they do have to actually ferry units across and are much more vulnerable for that reason. It's a simplistic approach, yes, but it's the only one we could think of. Anyone is free to make their own modifications to the scenario though, so just get going if you want to change things around. :)

@AmnesiaA: Yeah, the british are by far the easiest to play. When balancing the scenario we focused on a team vs. team balance, as the scenario is primarily geared towards MP. For single player games, we were more concerned about making each Civ play out as a different challenge. Check out the readme in Mods/Desert War/Info for more on that.

That said, all suggestions are welcome, but we'd better put those in a seperate thread in the Customization forum.
 
Isak said:
You create the units and other artwork, and I'll be happy to implement them.


Looking at your sig, I can see that Supply is a personal agenda of yours, so I'm sure you already know that adding such a concept isn't possible until the SDK is released.

YO! I'm just the poor sucker who bought the game. You have some level of access, apparently, to its design. So why not be a little more conscious of the community, and make a better game for the love of Mike? ("make it and you'll put it in..." Crike!)
 
Nuh Uh said:
YO! I'm just the poor sucker who bought the game. You have some level of access, apparently, to its design. So why not be a little more conscious of the community, and make a better game for the love of Mike? ("make it and you'll put it in..." Crike!)
Ehm.. not sure exactly what kind of access you think I have to the design of the game. But I'm certainly not empowered with the access that would allow me to implement Supply as a concept in CIV.

And if the release of the game had to wait for me to figure out how to make Units, when I can hardly draw match-stick men, then we'd still be waiting come this time next year.

Concious of the community? Gimme a break, i've spent the better part of 3 years being concious of this community - I have a real life to lead too, you know. ;)
 
Isak said:
It is present in a simulated fashion though (and this is partially in response to AmnesiaA as well), simply by not giving the Reich any cities on the African continent, so they do have to actually ferry units across and are much more vulnerable for that reason. It's a simplistic approach, yes, but it's the only one we could think of. Anyone is free to make their own modifications to the scenario though, so just get going if you want to change things around. :)

Actually if you gave Germany only ONE city, and a somewhat bad city at that, they would still have to ferry over to put up any real fight. But also since there is one city on the continent, the Germans would still attack on a small level, thus slowing the blitz I kept doing as Britian--I was able to finish Italy off in northern Africa by May the first year on my 2nd try with little challange. This would also better simulate the afrika troops, since the AI has a tendency to kill the ones sent over within five turns. I'm actually going to try one game with Tunis as a German city (Just because it was the last city Germany was in before it left Africa) so I can have a challange, and the Germans can actually join in instead of sitting there and occasionally making small and failed amphibious attacks. It's just more realistic.
 
AmnesiaA said:
Actually if you gave Germany only ONE city, and a somewhat bad city at that, they would still have to ferry over to put up any real fight. But also since there is one city on the continent, the Germans would still attack on a small level, thus slowing the blitz I kept doing as Britian--I was able to finish Italy off in northern Africa by May the first year on my 2nd try with little challange. This would also better simulate the afrika troops, since the AI has a tendency to kill the ones sent over within five turns. I'm actually going to try one game with Tunis as a German city (Just because it was the last city Germany was in before it left Africa) so I can have a challange, and the Germans can actually join in instead of sitting there and occasionally making small and failed amphibious attacks. It's just more realistic.

Cool - looking forward to hear how that works out. :)
 
AmesiaA:

I'm not sure what you're so peeved at. You originally stated you're having a lot of fun, but Spain Turkey and the barbs were causing you problems. I provided a way to ease that situation by the playing the easiest player in the scenario. If it's too easy for you, go back to the Allies and contend with them again.

The readme clearly explains that England IS the easiest and what level of ease each player is. A variety of levels was provided so that all levels of players could enjoy the scenario.

As for the Germans, please check your history. Rommel didn't lose just because of supply, but because Hitler refused all requests for assistence due to the failing of operation Barbarossa in Russia. Also, their presence WAS very limited in North Africa. The poms kept sinking their transport fleets. This same problem is presented in the scenario (and a solution in the readme).

Dale
 
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