Academies or Biowells ?

[Aeson]

Opportunity cost. Researching to Health buildings is a cost. Building them is a cost. And it all takes time.

Biowells are exactly where you need to go at the start anyway, and +2 Food is a great yield.

 

[Ryika]

Building biowells also has the opportunity cost of not getting Academies though, they're an investment to allow faster growth and then hopefully positive return later on. To get that growth rolling you need to invest in other techs and buildings that push your growth further, or you'll just stagnate at +5-8 pop above what you can get with academies, at which point you just haven't really gained anything over the pure science you get from academies. And even when spamming biowells you still need a chunk of Health-Virtues to supply them if you want to stay above +20 and get the science bonus, so that's another trade-off

I still think Academies are better in the game right now, mainly because of how trade routes work on the one side and because the game is just over before growing the empire really matters on the other side.

But either way, slightly off-topic: I really hate the way it is designed. Would wish specializing cities by biowelling one of them up and pushing academies in another one would be a viable strategy. But the opportunity cost of getting both is just SO huge... games really needs to last longer.

 

[Aeson]

Outside a cheese Contact or Domination game, you go to Robotics very early for the Autoplants quest. Bionics is right off of Robotics and comes with Biowells plus the Institute. The Institute represents up to about 4X the Science cost of Bionics because of the free tech from the Quest. So you get Biowells for free and get paid extra Science. No missed opportunity in grabbing it. There's actually a missed opportunity in not grabbing it, since you are delaying a whole lot of Science.

Biowells aren't just for faster growth. Though a +2 Food improvement is very strong in any case. They're also the way to ensure that (even when REX/conquest like mad):

10% Production in Cities
10% Science in Cities
10% Culture in Cities
20% speed towards Outpost growth
-50% Intrigue in your Cities from hostile Covert Operations

instead of:

-10% Production in Cities
-10% Science in Cities
-10% Culture in Cities
-50% Growth in Cities
100% Intrigue in your Cities from hostile Covert Operations

You can then go Farms, Academies, or Terrascapes once you've got Health under control. Academies (and that branch) tend to make more sense later in the game than they do early. Taking free Virtues early for instance costs you a lot of Culture overall, without really speeding up the Virtues that much.

I generally prefer Terrascapes for the Culture once the economy is rolling ... the Biowells have grown the pop already, so Farms lose some of their luster. Science at that point isn't as important as the Tech Web is relatively easy to max out and with most of what's left being fluff that isn't terribly useful. Virtues on the other hand are much more difficult to get everything useful.

 

[Greasy Dave]

But either way, slightly off-topic: I really hate the way it is designed. Would wish specializing cities by biowelling one of them up and pushing academies in another one would be a viable strategy. But the opportunity cost of getting both is just SO huge... games really needs to last longer.

I agree...my game's are over before I've been able to do anything like city focus or really carpet spam wells or academies...sure I could spam an army of workers and do it but resources and money seem better spent elsewhere.

The game has no mid-section, IMV. But it could be nudged in that direction quite easily, I think.

 

[Ryika]

Biowells aren't just for faster growth. Though a +2 Food improvement is very strong in any case.

Well, what do you gain from population? That's the real question I'm asking. Sure biowells allow you to grow and maintain a bigger empire, but what for? You don't get that much more production because you're working biowells to sustain that higher amount of population. So without virtues you get some science from population and that's it. Sure, knowledge and industry have some "per person"-bonuses, but they seem SO weak that I can't really see them making a difference compared to the RAW science that you can get from the moment the academies are built.

They're also the way to ensure that (even when REX/conquest like mad):

10% Production in Cities
10% Science in Cities
10% Culture in Cities
20% speed towards Outpost growth
-50% Intrigue in your Cities from hostile Covert Operations

instead of:

-10% Production in Cities
-10% Science in Cities
-10% Culture in Cities
-50% Growth in Cities
100% Intrigue in your Cities from hostile Covert Operations

Okay. But again... so? Defensive intrigue literally doesn't matter at the moment. I don't care about growth. I don't care about the 20% Outpost-Speed. I get tons of Production anyway. So what I care about are Science and Culture. I get enough Science from Academies. So the only drawback is the culture that I'm missing out on. And yeeaaah, that's annoying, I get the essential virtues a little later, but who really cares? I can just skip the health- and growth-focused virtues and that bonus is somewhat made up for. If the games were longer, sure.. a non-vertical-growth-academy-empire would fall apart on the long run... but the game only lasts about ~200 turns. And only about 150 of them really matter from a "Push the empire"-point of view. So I can't even see how you have time for all of this:

You can then go Farms, Academies, or Terrascapes once you've got Health under control. Academies (and that branch) tend to make more sense later in the game than they do early.

Sounds like you're playing a different game than me. ^^ Anyway. Maybe I'm just much better at making the academy-playstyle work than I am making the biowell-playstyle work. Are there any Let's Plays or Stories that show that playstyle in action?

 

[Aeson]

I don't care about growth.

Pop works tiles. Growth makes pop.

I don't care about the 20% Outpost-Speed.

Turn advantage on founding cities is very strong. Each turn delayed is giving up ~30-50 Production. Very important early on in REX (but still important later).

I get tons of Production anyway.

More when you go Autoplants. Autoplants have better than free Biowells attached ...

Sounds like you're playing a different game than me.

Yah. I like big empires with tons of pop ... complete domination is generally a given regardless of the victory type. I don't feel I've really won if there's competition left.

In CivBE it's back to Civ III style REX/conquest where that not only is the way I like to play, but it's also generally optimal and possible to time with other victories with little to no tradeoffs. (Early Contact and Capital sniping Domination excluded. Neither of which care about Biowells or Academies.)

Are there any Let's Plays or Stories that show that playstyle in action?

I posted a Let's Play the first day the game was out. But it's not a great example as I didn't understand how useful Biowells were until later in the game. Went heavy Generators early. Didn't really catch up with Health until Eudaimonia, and even then struggled with it a bit.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536334

If you check the 12th video, it starts out right on one of my Biowell cities. One of the benefits of such a city is the Trade Routes end up awesome. Very good for cities that are just starting out and want a ton of Food. That city was one that every coastal city would trade with during the growth phase.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

As long as the health system is borked there is little reason to get Biowells.
Early on you can ignore the health penalties and by the time they start to matter you can unlock Eudaimonia and the synergy II bonus from Prosperity to bring your health back to ~0. I guess the only reason to use Biowells would be that they allow you to skip the Health stuff from the right side of the web (but why waste precious pop yield for that?) OR you have forest tundra and don't use Terrascapes.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, what do you gain from population?

You also get additional "citizen" that can work on the tile.

 

[Question]

The problem with going biowells is that you just get +2 food/+1 culture/+1 health/-2 energy instead of the +1 energy/+3 energy generators have without xenomallen. Without the maintainance requirement it looks a lot more attractive but even then you would still go generators if you can keep your health up (which gets very easy in the mid-late game with multiple health boosting virtues).

You get to grow big but each pop is less effective than if they were working on generators.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Evey point of population is effective, if it has improved tile to work on.

 

[Aeson]

The problem with going biowells is that you just get +2 food/+1 culture/+1 health/-2 energy instead of the +1 energy/+3 energy generators have without xenomallen. Without the maintainance requirement it looks a lot more attractive but even then you would still go generators if you can keep your health up (which gets very easy in the mid-late game with multiple health boosting virtues).

You get to grow big but each pop is less effective than if they were working on generators.

Even if you're going Generators you want to mix in Food for Growth. If you only work Generators your population is going to stagnate and you quickly will be working fewer tiles ... even fewer Generators ... than the person who went Growth early.

Also, if you're going Generators it makes sense to use Biowells for that Growth, because picking up Farm boosts slow down picking up Generator boosts. Whereas Biowells are something you're going to pick up anyway.

 

[Question]

With the way the game is structured though, it is very easy to hit about 10 pop per city at which point you need to stop because you are going to go into the red.

Once you get infinite health though, you can grow as much as you want, but thats also when terrascape spamming or advanced farms become available.

 

[Strategist83]

Guys,

sorry to sort of derail with a trivial question, but I can't seem to figure this out: Academies. Academies, Biowells and Manufactories all have both "provides" yield and "yields" yield. With Biowells, this seems to work as advertised: It gives you +1 Health if you work that tile. With Academies, however... The tile yield only changes to +3 science as you'd expect, but the +2 science from the "provides" part doesn't seem to show up in my city output, regardless of whether I work the tile or not. Please explain? Surely, Academies are supposed to yield +5 science total in some way?

Manufactories, IIRC, also 'work as advertised'.

EDIT: To add something to the debate I think it's worth mentioning once again that Biowells can be placed in Forests without removing these. That is very significant: It let's you work bad tiles such as Tundra (with Forest) at full efficiency and it drastically cuts down on the amount of Worker time required in heavily forested areas.

Academies are generally good for Supremacy and better with flat land that doesn't require deforestation first. Biowells are good for Harmony, who might precisely have gone Harmony in part because of heavy forestation.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The +2 yield on academies and manufactories is a leftover tooltip. The 3 yield is correct.

 

[Strategist83]

The +2 yield on academies and manufactories is a leftover tooltip. The 3 yield is correct.

Thank you.

Loaded up my Hutama Supremacy game to check. It appears you are correct; Manufactories are also +3 only with no benefit from the +2 "provides" yield whatsoever.

In other words, blatantly misleading tech descriptions right in the center of the tech web.

Unacceptable, Firaxis.

EDIT: Edit, again... Because it appears it isn't a leftover or an oversight, but rather some obscure terminology that I can't fathom how to interpret. I say that because the Terrascape has both the 2/2/2 listed as "provides" and "yields". I am thoroughly confused as to the point of these descriptions now.

 

[InspCallahan]

Health for me in a nutshell: REX early game. Low to mid red (between 0 and -20) follows. Becomes low red or low green once I get the +7 prosperity policy. Becomes high green once I get the -25% unhealth. Never drops below 20 after that.

I ignore biowells entirely, and yet health is never an issue for me. What do you guys do, build 10+ cities and ITR them into megalopolises you can't maintain?

 

[s0nny80y]

Prosperity makes up for the lack of biowells.

Knowledge might fill the academy void.

10% penalty to virtue acquisition and science due to unhealthiness, puts prosperity in first place, although biowells can receive improvement upgrades later on ni the tech web (requiring science).

Both are expensive, so I guess if you spammed either, trade routes aren't so OP as one might think. In fact, you maybe a sub optimal player for not improving the land at the rate your generating income o.0

 

[Aeson]

With the way the game is structured though, it is very easy to hit about 10 pop per city at which point you need to stop because you are going to go into the red.

Once you get infinite health though, you can grow as much as you want, but thats also when terrascape spamming or advanced farms become available.

Biowells give +1 Health. So you can always grow to using max tiles without Health being impacted.