Acid_04: The final frontier

[Codex]

well, yes and no. We don't want to have 5 deity AIs jump on you because that is clearly an unwinnable position. Especially since AI has tremendous advantage in both production and research. In fact it that was the case, the earliest contact with AI would be deadly for human as AIs could just rush you with earliest units. That’s why you have things like diplomacy so you assume your friend who is pleased with you wont attack you. If every AI would ignore diplomacy like humans do (when I say ignoring I mean deciding to attack AI you have friendly status with because you know you can kill it), then every level where AI has advantage in terms of production and research would be unbeatable basically. Granted in this game we were surrounded with AIs that played exactly like humans would.

I appreciate this response, and the underlying reasoning. I've never even loaded a game at this level, let alone won one, and I've never used an AI better than that of the last official patch. So all of my questions are driven by pure curiosity, and an attempt to learn how the total game can work.

And I've learned a lot from this thread; in particular, it would seem that Blake has explained some aspects of the diplomacy system that most of us never knew (thanks, Blake!). The most pernicious of these are related to the (clunky) vassal system, but some of them have to do with something very close to AI "strategic thinking" -- perhaps better called "deeper tactics" -- in which major decisions are not determined exclusively by the current diplomatic relations. I know some people don't like this, and would rather be able to predict with complete accuracy what any AI's range of options is at any given moment. (E.g., if I get Isabella to Friendly, she'll never attack.) Others may just want more transparency in the diplomatic modifiers as a guide to relations, without necessarily being able to know, absolutely, how this will determine AI actions. When an AI has eyes on your land, and is mobilizing, should you be able to prevent an attack by ticking it to Friendly? For all leaders? I'm on the fence about this, but I'll agree that one of the great improvements in CIV4 over CIV3 is the much greater transparency of game mechanics, especially the all-important diplomacy numbers.

If nothing else, this SG has revealed some of the grey areas in the diplomatic system, and I hope that it suggests some ways to implement changes that make the AI more competitive at the highest levels without massive upgrade advantages, and preserving some distinct leader personalities. I think that the fact that none of the AI executed a massive early rush (as a human would) is a good sign; you guys came really close to pulling this off, which is another good sign! I hope that you take another kick at the can, so that it becomes clearer which game elements most need work.

Sorry if this is OT, but given the intentions of the thread, I hope it isn't.

 

[Mutineer]

In order to speed up precess I played untill our lost.
Was killing Toky stack, took back 2 of our cities and he won space as expected.

That is power graph. Toky losing his army, but he does not care.

Here replay file.
By some reason yeasy upload system easilly pronhibit replayes files, put it as attachment.
can not put as attachmetn to. pronhibited.

 

[Godel]

Thanks for playing this everyone. I enjoyed the effort you put into the game, write-ups and discussion. I would definitely be following again if you make a second attempt.

 

[futurehermit]

Great job guys, even with the loss. Can't wait for your next game!

 

[acidsatyr]

yeah i have to agree it was a very interesting game, even though we lost.
I'm sure it wouldve turned out differently if we knew better how some things work. And if we weren't surrounded by complete maniacs
In any case, i'm down for a rematch too.
What civ we want to play with? Any other special requests?
How about we play with Egypt again, and put same opponents in game? naww , I kid.

 

[Mutineer]

I migth suggest to try Louis XIV. Creative/industrious.

Idea behind my choise:
On deity one limit to a small amount of cities. The only way to overcome AI settler spamm is betetr development. But we can not develop better then AI becaus eAI will have technological advantage.
So, the only thin we can get better then AI is to snach a few critical early wanders.
Second way is GP generation, as human tend to do better job then AI.

Creative help with that with border expancion and cheap library.

I useally feel as with out hands if I do not have Spiritual trat, but one can try. We now plaing spirituals for a long time.

 

[Schindig5150]

So I've been playing Civ for....ever, including alpha centauri. I've never beat it on highest difficulty.

I've played Civ IV since launch and have loved/hated every minute of it. I got Warlords around x-mas and had gotten up to Emperor with the new warlords AI, but then I found this board. Excellently enough, right when your guys' game started.

Your Civ discussions are like crack. Thank you. I am so much better then before because of you guys.

My girlfriend (she is working on her first emperor win) and I check this at least once a week, if not daily. It gets our Civ juices flowing and gives us the confidence to go back to that really ugly save, that caused us to stop in the first place.

Thanks again guys!!

 

[Godel]

My girlfriend (she is working on her first emperor win) and I check this at least once a week, if not daily.

Lucky man
I'd be astounded if my wife even attempted to start a game.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[uberfish]

Industrious is too unreliable a trait at deity IMO, I've tried it but the AI techs and builds wonders too fast. Let's stick with spiritual. It has a great practical advantage in SGs because no one likes to play anarchy turns so we spend a lot of time running bad civic choices otherwise. And the ability to switch in and out of Nationalism and Caste at will is an edge we do use much better than the AI.

 

[CookieCutter]

Although the desicion is up to the players i would prefer seeing a SG Game from you guys which does not follow the standard path. Spiritual is strong, yes. But it would be nice to see seldom used traits in action.

 

[acidsatyr]

I agree, industrial is not really that great on deity;the very best thing about it on deity are cheap forges, since you won't be running wonder-happy game anyway. Only critical wonder is GL really.

I was hopping you would say philosophical to be honest. None of the recent games had philo trait, but maybe im wrong. Imo its a really a tossup between spiritual and philosophical when it comes to usefulness, but id say philo is still better since nothing beats early lightbulbing on deity. Alex could be great, cheap barracks and free combat when drafting, we could go Ghandi, but he's overplayed, at least in my own games. But any philosophical civ would be great.

So far Mutineer, Uberfish, theRat, and me , are up for this game. Blake disappeared long time ago. mark you up for this one?

 

[Mark1031]

I'm in. I like spiritual and anything else.

 

[jihe]

like to see you guys do the same settings, except turning off vassals, what a complete pita.........

 

[ThERat]

I am fine with any trait as it will be tough anyway

 

[uberfish]

some ideas: (I know you guys don't like financial civs)

Alex - the last game with phalanx was fun
Isa - with the 2.08 changes to citadels and expansive she could be a real competitor
Brennus - not played much, Cha helps with early happiness, uninspiring uniques though

 

[Mutineer]

Well, I liked Isa allways, but in warlords they make her even stronger.

Expnasionist trat is very strong early on. The only problem is I played mach of her. But on other site I know her well.
Financial is later game trait. Early on I activelly hate it. Use trat or have production, that is dilema of financial trait and I really want production.

Personally I would like to experiment with new trats, but it would be experiment, meaning we will not make a full use of it and probability to loose is higher.

On other side it could be fun.

I did try to experiment with new Cyrus. Pure warmondering traits. Did not work to well. UU demand zergling stile, but on deity upkeep is a killer.

I do strongly believe in spiritual trat, I just want to try something new, for opportunity to be creative.

 

[acidsatyr]

Spain is good, but like mutinner said its overplayed.
I don't like Cyrus's triats since you need to center your strategy around very early rushes and both traits are mediocre mid-late game at best.
So you guys aren't helping me lol. Just say one civ you want to play with.
I vote for alex since i haven't played with him in a while. Also taking a break from spiritual trait.

 

[Mark1031]

I would vote for alex or ghandi. I haven;t played either much.

 

[uberfish]

let's play Alex then

 

[ThERat]

Alex can be fun, but IIRC I played him in vanilla not warlords