angeleyes
mood indigo
Shaka's army is trapped between your land. Keep close borders & he can't upgrade them. Build a city next to his stack so it moves and loses it's 25% fortified bonus and kill them off. Plus your frontcity is on a hill....
Acid_04: The final frontier
- Thread starter acidsatyr
- Start date
Yeah, I fear that muskets will get obsoleted quickly leaving us with a large maintenance bill. Even if we kill his stacks with muskets, we still actually have to take cities against an enemy who will soon be fielding rifles/grenadiers and can draft too. The 'safest' point to commit to draft in terms of not getting obsoleted soon is at rifling and we will be able to slaughter Shaka's stranded units with a lot less casualties, which counts for a lot (Draft musket vs Aggressive mace is a tossup anyway.) In the end I'm actually very happy about getting that great artist, the culture bomb in Uppsala is probably the best I've ever seen in terms of what it accomplishes military wise. That's 30 stuck units which can't be upgraded, and best case scenario is Nidaros revolts and all the units in it get damaged too.
Anyway my advice is to wait for rifling and get that Globe up in Washington before committing to a draft strategy, we can queue the uni and switch 2 cottages to mines then whip it when we're out of GA.
The builder in me just wants to try for a DP with someone - Alex and Toku will get military tradition soon enough - and tech up for either UN, space race or Modern warfare (tanks/planes/nukes) as imo winning wars when outnumbered is easiest at Modern tech level. Remaining Korean territory is ours and it is nice, I think we should out tech the AIs once we have biology.
Not sure where we want to build FP, it doesn't gain us that much actually as Thebes is beautifully central anyway.
On the economic side there are 2 banks under construction with the idea that we will want to specialise a couple of Merchant cities for SE, Thebes is going to want one too at some point. Consider selling liberalism for some gold too (think we can get Toku to stop trading with Shaka)
one final note... Alex is "we have too much on our hands right now" and just got astronomy, wonder what he's planning...
Anyway my advice is to wait for rifling and get that Globe up in Washington before committing to a draft strategy, we can queue the uni and switch 2 cottages to mines then whip it when we're out of GA.
The builder in me just wants to try for a DP with someone - Alex and Toku will get military tradition soon enough - and tech up for either UN, space race or Modern warfare (tanks/planes/nukes) as imo winning wars when outnumbered is easiest at Modern tech level. Remaining Korean territory is ours and it is nice, I think we should out tech the AIs once we have biology.
Not sure where we want to build FP, it doesn't gain us that much actually as Thebes is beautifully central anyway.
On the economic side there are 2 banks under construction with the idea that we will want to specialise a couple of Merchant cities for SE, Thebes is going to want one too at some point. Consider selling liberalism for some gold too (think we can get Toku to stop trading with Shaka)
one final note... Alex is "we have too much on our hands right now" and just got astronomy, wonder what he's planning...
AS I see, Draft or not Draft muskets is a question of safety.
WE are still a long way form riffles.
Zulu will not attack as as long as we warring Wang(I think AI avoide double declarations), but we have about 10 turns or less to finish Wang, or he vassal himself to Zulu. After that we fear game.
Wait for riffles rely on Shaka good behaviour, which I would rather not do.
WE talk about rundom chance, but useally this rundom chance only exist early on, later like now we have options to control our destiny.
On a side note, can we bribe Toky to declare on Shaka?
He migth commit some trops to sea war. Hmm, what is Alex is up to?
Ofcouse MY suggesting revotl to Nationalism should be after Golden age finished.
WE are still a long way form riffles.
Zulu will not attack as as long as we warring Wang(I think AI avoide double declarations), but we have about 10 turns or less to finish Wang, or he vassal himself to Zulu. After that we fear game.
Wait for riffles rely on Shaka good behaviour, which I would rather not do.
WE talk about rundom chance, but useally this rundom chance only exist early on, later like now we have options to control our destiny.
On a side note, can we bribe Toky to declare on Shaka?
He migth commit some trops to sea war. Hmm, what is Alex is up to?
Ofcouse MY suggesting revotl to Nationalism should be after Golden age finished.
Wang won't vassalize to Shaka, Shaka has done nothing to him. Same reason he won't vassalize to us although we are obviously able to crush him, because all we've done is raze one 2 pop city.
If we draft muskets we are taking just as much of a risk as if we don't draft them at all. Every single one we draft directly slows our progress to better military tech that we desperately need, by reducing our population while costing maintenance. If we draft 30-40 muskets for example we risk Shaka getting rifles before we do and attacking in that window.
1 round of muskets might not hurt us too much, but we should not go into happiness debt for them and we should definitely not try to start an offensive war with them. Our main hope of winning any near-future war is to deploy superior tech on those 30 unupgradable units to even the numbers and get much needed xp, if Shaka attacks in next 10 turns we lose anyway IMO. It would be reasonable to start making some cats though for Shaka's 2nd stack that will come in from the east, because if we choose to go for rifling, we won't have steel in decent time.
We're going to have to decide whether we want to try and force the showdown at rifling/steel which we should reach fairly quickly in Representation which we have in 2 turns, or play for a diplomatic stall while teching to Modern age.
If we draft muskets we are taking just as much of a risk as if we don't draft them at all. Every single one we draft directly slows our progress to better military tech that we desperately need, by reducing our population while costing maintenance. If we draft 30-40 muskets for example we risk Shaka getting rifles before we do and attacking in that window.
1 round of muskets might not hurt us too much, but we should not go into happiness debt for them and we should definitely not try to start an offensive war with them. Our main hope of winning any near-future war is to deploy superior tech on those 30 unupgradable units to even the numbers and get much needed xp, if Shaka attacks in next 10 turns we lose anyway IMO. It would be reasonable to start making some cats though for Shaka's 2nd stack that will come in from the east, because if we choose to go for rifling, we won't have steel in decent time.
We're going to have to decide whether we want to try and force the showdown at rifling/steel which we should reach fairly quickly in Representation which we have in 2 turns, or play for a diplomatic stall while teching to Modern age.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Hey guys, just wanted to say great discussion. I can almost feel the tension right now 
Good luck!
Good luck!
ThERat
Deity
acid, did you go for some extended xmas-break? At least let us know what is the status...
Welkl, there no X-mas in Russia.
Well Ortodox x-mass come after New Year, by Gregorian calendar and it is not commonly celebrated.
Main hollidays in Russia is New Year and live generally does not stop befor 30th-31th of December. So, I have no idea where did he go.
Well Ortodox x-mass come after New Year, by Gregorian calendar and it is not commonly celebrated.
Main hollidays in Russia is New Year and live generally does not stop befor 30th-31th of December. So, I have no idea where did he go.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
Well, it’s tuff position especially since we don’t know what Alex is up to… My guess is Wong but who knows.
Why are we in case system and we have at most one specialist assigned in some of your cities? I probably missed the reason for this one. Also there is a city or two that’s working a citizen…
We’r also building wrong stuff in some of the cities (i.e banks?).
turn 0
--------
just changed a few things , also units need to heal for two turns.
Capital wastes a lot of shields, i assigned more scientists, but muskets still one each turn.
turn 1
--------
started few muskets, colossus built.
turn 2
--------
Popped ~ 1900/2700 beakers for P.Press. 3 more until done. Move units into Wangs land.
Still waiting for two turns so i can change civics again.
Can’t really whip or draft yet.
New cities build courthouses, others finishing up what they have and starting muskets...
turn 3
---------
repeat…
I’m checking any trading opportunity of any kin so far nothing. Gave Japan wheat for 5 gpt..
turn 4
----------
Out of GA. Switch to Rep/Nation/Slavery.
Do a round of drafting.
Capital should get GS in 3 so i can pop chemistry.
Japan wants Elephants for Pigs I refuse.
turn 5
-------
round of whip/draft.
turn 6
-------
round of whip/draft. Farms are beautiful. Research is fine.
Capture Pyongyang.
turn 7
--------
round of whip/draft.
Units heal in Pyongyang (trying to prolong this war a little bit more..)
Military instructor added to Washington.
turn 8
--------
round of whip/draft
GS in, pop chemistry. Some cities start grenadiers. I flipped a coin (seriously) for either Steel or Rep. Parts + Rifling. Went for letter.
turn 9
-------
round draft
Sold Shaka Liberalism for some cash +world map.
Greece declares war on Japan !!
turn 10
----------
round draft.
turn 11
---------
pressed enter , touched nothing.
Rep. Parts in 3.
Only by sheer numbers we can win this.
Enjoy.
Why are we in case system and we have at most one specialist assigned in some of your cities? I probably missed the reason for this one. Also there is a city or two that’s working a citizen…
We’r also building wrong stuff in some of the cities (i.e banks?).
turn 0
--------
just changed a few things , also units need to heal for two turns.
Capital wastes a lot of shields, i assigned more scientists, but muskets still one each turn.
turn 1
--------
started few muskets, colossus built.
turn 2
--------
Popped ~ 1900/2700 beakers for P.Press. 3 more until done. Move units into Wangs land.
Still waiting for two turns so i can change civics again.
Can’t really whip or draft yet.
New cities build courthouses, others finishing up what they have and starting muskets...
turn 3
---------
repeat…
I’m checking any trading opportunity of any kin so far nothing. Gave Japan wheat for 5 gpt..
turn 4
----------
Out of GA. Switch to Rep/Nation/Slavery.
Do a round of drafting.
Capital should get GS in 3 so i can pop chemistry.
Japan wants Elephants for Pigs I refuse.
turn 5
-------
round of whip/draft.
turn 6
-------
round of whip/draft. Farms are beautiful. Research is fine.
Capture Pyongyang.
turn 7
--------
round of whip/draft.
Units heal in Pyongyang (trying to prolong this war a little bit more..)
Military instructor added to Washington.
turn 8
--------
round of whip/draft
GS in, pop chemistry. Some cities start grenadiers. I flipped a coin (seriously) for either Steel or Rep. Parts + Rifling. Went for letter.
turn 9
-------
round draft
Sold Shaka Liberalism for some cash +world map.
Greece declares war on Japan !!
turn 10
----------
round draft.
turn 11
---------
pressed enter , touched nothing.
Rep. Parts in 3.
Only by sheer numbers we can win this.
Enjoy.
I am in favor to accept Wang capitulation and declare on shaka befor he create a supper stack. So we can destroy his trapped stack and sit on defence for a while.
he got riffling and upgraded all he could, I see no choise.
If we wait untill he declare himself we will need not only kill his trapped stack, but take on some more supper stacks he trow at as.
If we kill his trapped stack, we migth hope to heal befor next stacks come.
Greece declare on Japan no good.
On additional notice, there is shaka merchant on our land. I expect would be mission soon. Is money be avalible fora turn to grab? Blake?
Shaka power graph absolutly over top. I wander does he has any navy? If he does.....
he got riffling and upgraded all he could, I see no choise.
If we wait untill he declare himself we will need not only kill his trapped stack, but take on some more supper stacks he trow at as.
If we kill his trapped stack, we migth hope to heal befor next stacks come.
Greece declare on Japan no good.
On additional notice, there is shaka merchant on our land. I expect would be mission soon. Is money be avalible fora turn to grab? Blake?
Shaka power graph absolutly over top. I wander does he has any navy? If he does.....
ThERat
Deity
agree with your plan, Muti...better now than too late (look at my failed immortal Sg game when Cyrus was too strong and far ahead)
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
I'd wait for that merchant to give shaka money, then try to get all that money (maybe give him chemistry), and try to cash upgrade some muskets to riffles....
in any case wait a few more turns.
Id finish off wang as well.
Shaka is not that far away, he just has units.
in any case wait a few more turns.
Id finish off wang as well.
Shaka is not that far away, he just has units.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
The key is gathering as much units as possible 20+ and completely finishing off that traped stack, that alone should half his power. All his units are there and in two border cities, we dont know if he has navy, but we know hell send at least one transport so just keep a few muskets on coast just in case
Well, everything is ok, but some thinks did not went complitly as expected.
First, I really do not undestand building strategy used.
Some cities have Unies, but do not have 2 main buildings every city should have.
Forges and Markets.
Forge - +25 to production Up to +3 Happiness can hire engeneer.
Markets = +25% money UP to +4 happiness can hire 2 merchants
There practically no better buildings exist in the game.
Banks??? Unies??? useless. This 2 buildings increase city ability to produce units immensly and generally helpfull.
I spend mach population whiping this buildings.
turn 0 capitulate wang, told him to research steel.
Move units to hill near Shaka's stack, but not so he can attack in one more.
Produse some cats for collateral.
Was waiting for merchant.
When he finally made his mission, Money never become avalible in trade!!!
WE had been beteer of just declare and kill him. Shaka spend this money and spur research and more upgrades.
When it become clear I went to talk on shaka and he has too mach on his hands, preparing to declare on as.
I did not wait and declare myself, but did not attack his stack, as I want him to move it to remove 25% bonus.
Next turn Shaka move trapped stack and move 2 riffles staks in direction
of our culture bomb city.
Attack traped stack with all our cats (not trebushets, trebushets do small collateral damage and better in taking off cities cultural defence.
I think we should preserve them).
Some withdrow, but after that we clean up this stack with muskets and all other absolute units. Got Greate General out of that, Join it to Washington, our global theater cty. So, drafted unis will be better.
I was whipping greens and trow overflow into GT. Probably one-2 overflow left to finish it.
As result of loosing 30 units Shaka power Jump up!!! The same turn he got Cavalry and upgraded all his knights!
If I declare earlier, not waiting for merchant and kill merchant we would had been in mach betetr position. We would be fasing knigth insted of cavalry.
Next turn I clean up 2 riffles stack that move next to city.
I hided our big stack behind city (as one should do in multiplayer), so he thinks he can take city.
One rigffles stack was easy taken by greens, but we did not had enogth greens for other, so muskets had to be sucrified.
Next turn border city revolt, dropping strength of riffles in it in half.
I took that opportunity (even allmost all our units were damaget) to kill them off and raise city. (I do not think we can keep it, we need to sit on defence untill riffles and clean up shaka Cavalry.
Shaka send more Cavalry, whish I kill with muskets. IN average we loosing 1.3 muskets per dead cavalry.
Got second Great General, it is active now, not sure where to put it.
I advice to micro city to max specialists now and run to riffles. IN a mean time existing forces should be enogth to hold Shaka off.
Power Graph:
Killing riffles stack and raise city finally drop his power a noch.
Our forces in city and there some around, covering wounded units.
First, I really do not undestand building strategy used.
Some cities have Unies, but do not have 2 main buildings every city should have.
Forges and Markets.
Forge - +25 to production Up to +3 Happiness can hire engeneer.
Markets = +25% money UP to +4 happiness can hire 2 merchants
There practically no better buildings exist in the game.
Banks??? Unies??? useless. This 2 buildings increase city ability to produce units immensly and generally helpfull.
I spend mach population whiping this buildings.
turn 0 capitulate wang, told him to research steel.
Move units to hill near Shaka's stack, but not so he can attack in one more.
Produse some cats for collateral.
Was waiting for merchant.
When he finally made his mission, Money never become avalible in trade!!!
WE had been beteer of just declare and kill him. Shaka spend this money and spur research and more upgrades.
When it become clear I went to talk on shaka and he has too mach on his hands, preparing to declare on as.
I did not wait and declare myself, but did not attack his stack, as I want him to move it to remove 25% bonus.
Next turn Shaka move trapped stack and move 2 riffles staks in direction
of our culture bomb city.
Attack traped stack with all our cats (not trebushets, trebushets do small collateral damage and better in taking off cities cultural defence.
I think we should preserve them).
Some withdrow, but after that we clean up this stack with muskets and all other absolute units. Got Greate General out of that, Join it to Washington, our global theater cty. So, drafted unis will be better.
I was whipping greens and trow overflow into GT. Probably one-2 overflow left to finish it.
As result of loosing 30 units Shaka power Jump up!!! The same turn he got Cavalry and upgraded all his knights!
If I declare earlier, not waiting for merchant and kill merchant we would had been in mach betetr position. We would be fasing knigth insted of cavalry.
Next turn I clean up 2 riffles stack that move next to city.
I hided our big stack behind city (as one should do in multiplayer), so he thinks he can take city.
One rigffles stack was easy taken by greens, but we did not had enogth greens for other, so muskets had to be sucrified.
Next turn border city revolt, dropping strength of riffles in it in half.
I took that opportunity (even allmost all our units were damaget) to kill them off and raise city. (I do not think we can keep it, we need to sit on defence untill riffles and clean up shaka Cavalry.
Shaka send more Cavalry, whish I kill with muskets. IN average we loosing 1.3 muskets per dead cavalry.
Got second Great General, it is active now, not sure where to put it.
I advice to micro city to max specialists now and run to riffles. IN a mean time existing forces should be enogth to hold Shaka off.
Power Graph:
Killing riffles stack and raise city finally drop his power a noch.
Our forces in city and there some around, covering wounded units.
ThERat
Deity
got it, well maybe I wait for some input. What can we do to get rifling faster? Any trades possibe?
It will be a long war, but as long as we keep on the defense for now, our WW will not go out that much.
It will be a long war, but as long as we keep on the defense for now, our WW will not go out that much.
GA is for building population by working farms/cottages to get the bonus yield, not running specialists.
Our economy was/is terrible as demonstrated by how long it's currently taking to research rifling, something has to pay for the specialists and we don't know if we will get colossus or not at that point.
My fault, I missed that when I switched from knight to treb production.
LOL, I'm not sure how this game is actually working, since we really are playing from completely different strategic perspectives here. When I played my turn I certainly didn't imagine that we would be drafting vast quantities of muskets, or I would have built up rather differently. I'm still against it in theory - I just hope it works out in practice.
That is unforchinatly incorrect.
WW depends on cultural dominance, not cultural borders. Place where we are figning is ex Ragnar and he is still alive. His culture doninate there, so game mechanic consider bouth of as (Shaka and ourself) to be on offence.
ON a brigt side game mechanic favor attack. I was attacking, as on plain
he does not have any defence bonuses and exp we are getiing 2 times bigger.
That improve surviving units and give as GG points, I got 2 GG my turns.
I will suggest we sit on defence untill rifles and then our stack should be big enogth for a bit of offence.
Agree on anything Wang as as, may be we can get him in trading state from all this shared war.
I give him Nationalism when he asked.
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