Add some Tyrants as leaders -- Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc.

Salah-Al-Din

Vanguard of Islam.
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I think that these people (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, etc.) have had such a profound impact on history that they can't just be taken out of a historical game . Of course, Firaxis should always be sensitive to cultural and religious sensitivities...but like if I was Jewish, then I'd definitely want to add Hitler in the game just so I could kick his butt.

Might be offensive to Germans, since they don't want to be associated with him, but then again there would be alternate leaders to pick from.
 
Stalin is in Warlords. Hitler can't be in the game because of German market, but there are mods providing him. Mussolini would maybe suitable rank for negative score, and considering Italy won't be in the game (Rome is), what would he be leading?

Looking at the leaders already in the game, I think there already are some tyrants to choose from.. My personal preference is that no leader from the last 100 years should be included, as they're recent past, not historical in the same sense. In that sense, all three you mentioned should be out, as should any other WWII leaders. What's with the WWII obsession anyway? Can't we go for WWI, or 30 year war, or some other big war a few decades / centuries ( / millenia ) back?
 
I think it would be cool if people like Hitler, Kim Jong Il, Saddam Hussein, etc. were in the game.

There are mods, however.
 
In that sense, all three you mentioned should be out, as should any other WWII leaders. What's with the WWII obsession anyway? Can't we go for WWI, or 30 year war, or some other big war a few decades / centuries ( / millenia ) back?

Haha, I'm a WWII buff.

I was so mad that they didn't have a built-in scenario in the Vanilla Civ 4. I guess they have it in the expansion pack?

I downloaded a legal copy of Civ 4 from GameStop.com ....but they didn't have Warlords...does anyone know of a site where you can legally download the expansion pack?

I'm not computer-smart so pirating is way out of my league. Plus, I don't mind spending $30 on a game that I waste hours a day on.
 
As I've seen several recent past leaders being asked for in multiple threads, I really have to ask: Why?
Why are you asking for someone just a couple of decades ago? Why not for someone centuries ago?
Can you already judge how someone has changed the world in ways to be considered historically significant after a couple of centuries?
Can you argue that a specific person (a leader of some nation immediatelly preceding, during, or immediatelly after WWII) was critical for what happened during his time, or could it be that what happened was not dependant on a specific person, rather being shaped by conditions, only needing someone with some attributes (eg. someone charismatic, able to sway the crowds by speech) as the figurehead?

As the time passes, history is studied. Documents previously hidden or otherwise unavailable become available, changing our views of how something came to happen. Better understanding of sociopolitics refines our theories, allowing us to re-evaluate the past. And I think most importantly, as the recent past falls into the history, people from the era pass, and new people step up, we can finally consider issues more objectivelly. When talking about WWII today, most responses are heavily emotionally laden. But as soon as you move to talking about WWI, the fact that our own fathers didn't fight in the war allows us to consider issues more objectively, without strong emotional attachment to some specific point of view.

Now, I'm not saying eg. Hitler has no place in cIV. I'm saying that we can't judge his (nor Churchill's, nor Stalin's, Mao's, FDR's - was that full list of WWII leaders included in cIV?) historical significance yet, so they shouldn't be in the core game, rather added via mods for those who would want them in - whether by emotional reasons or something else.


Edit:
Note that I don't think cIV is a wargame. WWII was a war. There are wargames depicting WWII.
cIV is an empire building game with war elements (that's how most empires have been built, afterall) spanning millenia. With that scope in mind, the focus should be in empires and millenia, not in a single war.
 
I think that'd actually be nice, however the game follows a certain legacy which will make it unlikely.

The game's theme was originally Nation-oriented. So there was Romans, Greek, Turks, Babylonian and so on, and some leader name was used just as representative figure of the nation. In those circumstances of course it would be offensive to have Hitler's name representing your country! In Civ2, actually, there was 1 female name and 1 male name per nation, just so it'd be your automatic name when you choose your nation and gender.

Now it's more leader oriented. So it wouldn't be that bad if you could have any kind of AI leader representative more of himself and his way to manage his nation and his personality values, but you'd need to have a way to suppress the nation names. That way you don't have Hitler representing Germany but an AI running a little sim-nation... errr.. virtual Civ in a way that somehow imitates Hitler. But in Civ4 the nation names are still there, and it'd be either hard or annoying to remake the game in a way that completely suppresses the nations because of the city names, but it'd be nice, you could have AIs based on non-rulers like Machiavelli, Adam Smith, Plato, Simon Bolivar and Bill Gates.
 
As I've seen several recent past leaders being asked for in multiple threads, I really have to ask: Why?
Why are you asking for someone just a couple of decades ago? Why not for someone centuries ago?
Can you already judge how someone has changed the world in ways to be considered historically significant after a couple of centuries?
Can you argue that a specific person (a leader of some nation immediatelly preceding, during, or immediatelly after WWII) was critical for what happened during his time, or could it be that what happened was not dependant on a specific person, rather being shaped by conditions, only needing someone with some attributes (eg. someone charismatic, able to sway the crowds by speech) as the figurehead?

As the time passes, history is studied. Documents previously hidden or otherwise unavailable become available, changing our views of how something came to happen. Better understanding of sociopolitics refines our theories, allowing us to re-evaluate the past. And I think most importantly, as the recent past falls into the history, people from the era pass, and new people step up, we can finally consider issues more objectivelly. When talking about WWII today, most responses are heavily emotionally laden. But as soon as you move to talking about WWI, the fact that our own fathers didn't fight in the war allows us to consider issues more objectively, without strong emotional attachment to some specific point of view.

Now, I'm not saying eg. Hitler has no place in cIV. I'm saying that we can't judge his (nor Churchill's, nor Stalin's, Mao's, FDR's - was that full list of WWII leaders included in cIV?) historical significance yet, so they shouldn't be in the core game, rather added via mods for those who would want them in - whether by emotional reasons or something else.


Edit:
Note that I don't think cIV is a wargame. WWII was a war. There are wargames depicting WWII.
cIV is an empire building game with war elements (that's how most empires have been built, afterall) spanning millenia. With that scope in mind, the focus should be in empires and millenia, not in a single war.

World War II was the most destructive and greatest war the world has ever seen. As such, it will always have its place in history...it was the single most important event in the twentieth century.

And of course Civ is an empire building game, but they *do* ask you to select one leader who will magically rule for thousands of years. No leader in history watched his empire grow for millenia.

Anyways, I don't see why Civ is so stingy with how many leaders you can pick from. How hard it could be to create a whole string of leaders you can pick from? To each his own that way.
 
I'm not computer-smart so pirating is way out of my league. Plus, I don't mind spending $30 on a game that I waste hours a day on.

Yeah and it's illegal. You might want to re-phrase that?
 
When you choose a civ and a leader, you pick the following:
- 2 starting techs
- 2 traits
- unique unit
- unique building

Four out of six are defined by civilization, two by leader. However, the leader traits seem to have most importance in shaping the grand scale of the game. Starting techs make huge difference early on, UUs may or may not make a huge difference in some specific era, UB usually provides a slight advantage, the later the UU the greater the advantage. Synergies between UU, UB, starting techs and traits of the leaders available for the civ are debated here on the forums, and opinions to all directions are certainly to be found.

However, when an AI is considered, there's one more aspect: the leader personality.

When adding a new leader, you have to add it to some civilization. In general, the leader is expected to be a historical figure with significance in his era, and a representative figure of the civilization in question. Most of the leaders currently included are well known (at least to people with some sort of education), and all can be found in any reasonable encyclopedia - electronic and bound alike.
When a fitting leader has been found, the traits have to be assigned. These should relate to the characteristics of the leader, although often these are assigned per his actions - our knowledge about the actual character of the person is often quite limited. Some trait combinations aren't acceptable as they may have too deep synergy leading to over powerful combination, and most trait combinations are debated on the forums here.
In addition, the AI personality has to be programmed. I haven't looked into what all this consists of, but based on the feeling I've gained from playing, this is more of tweaking a relatively small number of preference values than a full fledged personality program.
And of course the leaderhead, graphics, and leader specific wordings of diplomatic options added.

I would say that having two to three leaders per civilization from the official source (that is, Firaxis, in form of the core game and expansions) is enough. Modders have provided numerous additions, as it should be (I'm not really familiar with those, as I don't use nor much care about content mods - this may change in time when I feel something of specific interest to me has appeared on the scene).

I would actually go as far as to say that the leader traits are too big a factor when choosing the civilzation and leader I'm going to play. I would feel more comfortable with higher emphasis on civlization, with leader being more for flavour than strong game balance issue. However, that's something for Civ5, as Civ4 is quite set in stone having been released to the wild.


On WWII:
Yes, it was indeed a huge, destructive war that blanketed the globe in smoke and gunpowder. But looking back, what all was due to specific leaders of some nations, and what due to general development? If there had been no Adolf Hitler, how much would've changed? Would another person have risen, the grand scheme of things already moving to the direction, to take the place Hitler held? Or was it Hitler that moved the world? Asking these questions, not only regarding Hitler but other people in positions of importance as well - which of the occurences were due to specific people, which due to the tide? And which of the leaders were great, which just figureheads?

Of course same questions can be asked regarding many of the leaders already in cIV, and many of those proposed.

During WWII, I feel that few of the national level leaders made many decisions without those decisions having been first formulated by larger groups of people - whether by council of generals or a civilian cabinet. I would almost go so far as to say that the time of the great leaders had passed - no single person was shaping the world really. The world had changed, with too many fields of science, too many sources of information, for anyone to manage alone. It was not Hitler, it was him and his cabinet. It was not FDR, it was also the cabinet. Churchill? Who made him a leader - UK had a monarch (although there's a strong case for Churchill instead of the King). Stalin? This may be the closest to dictatorship, but even Stalin wasn't alone.

This could of course be debated, but regarding cIV I stay behind my stance: no leader of any kind from recent past (which I've defined as 100 years, which should be enough that the player community wouldn't have personal experiences from the time, very few having second hand experiences either) should be included. Where an interesting debate could be held regarding WWII, and my opinions could sway one way or another, a fact is that it's too recent to not have emotional effect on most of us therefore leading to more subjective than objective choices.
 
This idea seems ok to be but i think that it should only be if you decide to make a custom civilisation. I think possibly you should be able to make your own civ e.g RANDOM
CUSTOM
AZTECS ...

Then u pick a flag, a leaderhead, 2 traits, UU, UB and starting techs(Only ones in the first column so no gunpowder. Your cities names are the ones that barbs normally have unless u change it. As i said only ideas.
 
After browsing this forum a bit, I realize that this topic has been discussed again and again. Must annoy the veterans when newbies like myself do this, lol. Sorry guys! Didn't know that this has already been discussed to death.
 
But looking back, what all was due to specific leaders of some nations, and what due to general development?

Butterfly flap wings in Hong Kong make tornado in Florida.

Of course the tornadoes in Florida aren't caused by butterflies in Hong Kong but in history, much much more than you think is owed to things as tiny as a single phrase spoken in a dinner table, and much more to the lifelong dedication of single people to a specific goal. There are people that have decided the destiny of nations with ONE moment of making ONE choice, and that impacts the events of the history of the world for years to come.
 
This is interesting as my own version I'm working on has several leaders over time so many countries have tyrants as their modern leaders.
 
There are people that have decided the destiny of nations with ONE moment of making ONE choice, and that impacts the events of the history of the world for years to come.

You mean like when Franz Ferdinand stopped for a sandwich and World War I was the direct result? :lol:

That's such a great story.

I mean, because he was hungry at that moment... and there happened to be a place to get a sandwich nearby... millions were killed in WWI, more millions in WWII, technology advanced ridiculously, colonialism ended (or changed to what it is now if you like, durr hurr) and the entire political situation of the world was forever altered. All because of a sandwich :p. Ok, maybe he would've got shot a bit later but things would've gone a little different then I imagine.
 
I think they should be included in the game. If nothing else they make the perfect villains you want to see destroyed in the game. Some of them affected history greatly, they were history. While some of them were truly monsters as individuals there contributions to history were considerable. I to am a WWII buff and it is out of that conflict that many of today’s modern weapons of warfare emerged. It is probably one of the most single most important development grounds in history. Some of the weapons coming out of that war were the first fighter jet, the first rockets, ICBM, modern tanks, aircraft carrier and air plane as a major weapon of war. Even the bad had good achievements. Hitler created the first Freeway the Autobahn, the Voltswagon as well as being a daring & bold military tactician in the early stages of the war. He has responsible for developing the jet airplane, rocket, missiles and atomic power. It was the head of the German rocket science program that lead NASA and put us on the moon before Russia. It was his rocket scientist on both sides that made space travel a reality instead of science fiction. We have him to thank for one of the popular modes of transportation today, the jet airplane. Contribution to modern day society the came out of a brutal tyrants rein turn out to litterly change the world into what we know as civilization today in many ways.
 
what add hitler for?
 
The game already has tyrants in it. Mao Zedong killed tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of people in his great leap forward and other cultural "revolutions" Stalin and his gulags killed millions more. I think the main reason Hitler isn't in the game is not because Germany wouldn't sell it (I doubt that very much since there was a movie made about Hitler) it's because we saw Hilter's atrocities.

There are thousands of photos of the Holocaust but very few if any of the Great Leap Forward or the gulags. Images have more of an effect on us than mere words and Hitler will be forever associated with those images. Since there is no way to separate the two the developers don't want to risk their game also being associated with those images therefore they keep Hitler out.

You mean like when Franz Ferdinand stopped for a sandwich and World War I was the direct result?

Well lets be honest while that was the main catalyst for the fighting it's very likely that it would have happened anyway if not the assassination of Ferdinand then it would have been something else.
 
gaius julius was a tyrant too.

the thing is hitler wasnt a simple tyrant.
 
I usually find myself adding blood thirsty leaders from throughout history just so I can kill them. I just feel more motivated to defeat Hitler than Frederick, and Stalin vs. Catherine, etc. And, obviously, I feel more compelled to kill modern madmen than ones from older points in history. The bottom line is that Firaxis is never ever going to add Hitler. I'm surprised that Stalin was added in the very first Civ to be honest, and Mao into Civ4. The latter two probably killed more people each than Hitler did. But, remember, its perception. That's what matters. Which, that also leads me to wonder why they added religion to the series..... I love that they did, just surprised.
 
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