Advanced Diplomacy

[Papa Lazarou]

Do you think Diplomacy is advanced enough? what do you think could/should be added in order to make the game more emersive/fun?

personally i think civ3 took a major step back as far as diplomacy's concerned compared to SMAC.

here are some things i think they shouldve included (a few were available in SMAC before )

1) i think you should be able to ask 'Civ A' to stop the war with 'Civ B' or vice versa.

2) i think you should be able to give or sell military units to another civ. this happened in WW2 with old american frigates for british bases/territory and could be programmed the same way the workers can be sold now maybe.

3) you should be able to co-ordinate attacks with an ally ie. you strike here and i'll strike here ala SMAC.

4) i think you should be able to ask/demand to send in 'observers' which basically allow you to see whats going on in the civ's territory for 20 turns. may be especially useful if you want to keep check on those pesky zulu's troop/nuke movements if you suspect retaliation after whooping them! also could possibly be linked with the UN great wonder where you could be able to have UN international observers in all the other civ's territories after you built it.


off topic but i think mutual protection pacts should be fixed too so that they only work if your partner is <B>not</B> the aggressor and also the UN vote should be reworked and made more like SMAC's where you need a 1/3(?) majority and you can choose not to accept the vote which means all the civs that did will gang up against you to 'convert' you to their way of thinking (pleeeease firaxis!!)


please add your suggestions/comments!

(edited for typo)

 

[Exile_Ian]

I'd prefer to leave aside comparisons to SMAC (or any other game in fact) since I don't think its relevant. But in terms of improvements to Civ3 itself - yes I think there's a few things that could be improved fairly easily in the Diplomacy area.

Re. your points ...

1) Yes I think that should be a reasonable thing to add. My concern is how would it work? So you ask Russia to make peace with France, what if they refuse? Should that degrade your relationship with Russia? If you're not careful, it will become just another excuse for you to be drawn into a someone else's war. Hmmm sounds like standard U.S. foreign policy

2) Yes I agree that giving (or selling) units should be possible. But since the 'trading' of cities doesn't work properly either, I doubt this will be added any time. What about if you do give an advanced unit to another civ - should you automatically gain the pre-requisite science advances? That makes sense when compared to real-life (e.g. you are given an ICBM, you then know how to build new ones). However, I'm concerned that might unbalance the game. For instance, giving a modern unit to a Civ that is way behind in science could give them a huge science leap. Would that be reasonable? Maybe they shouldn't get the science advances (and therefore couldn't build more of the same units) - but that would make the gift of a single unit of limited value.

3) I think co-ordinating attacks with the AI would be next to impossible due to the difficulty of communicating those concepts (and programming the AI to act accordingly). However, that's an obvious benefit that will come with Multi Player. (So much scope for double-crossing your ally - I love it!).

4) Sounds like your describing a 'peace-keeper'. Maybe something like a one-way 'right of access' (as compared to a two-way 'right of passage') for non-lethal units only would cover this. So you could send in a Scout (for instance) to keep an eye on the other Civ. But in reality you can do that anyway can't you? Even if the Civ complains, I don't think they can force you to choose between removing your unit or declaring war (if it's a non-combatant unit).

I also agree with your comments on MPP. Maybe what would be better would be that if your partner in the MPP declares war, you should have the options of (a) Moving to a full Alliance; (2) Also declaring war - but staying at MPP level; (3) Cancel the MPP. Of course, if your MPP partner is attacked, I think you would automatically have to be drawn into the war. (But maybe the same logic I mentioned above would still work - but you'd be penalised heavily, in terms of reputation, it you declined to help out).


Another obvious thing I still miss (compared to Civ2) is the option of a cease-fire. I think that's a major omision since it forces you to go from War, directly to Peace (which is rarely the case in real-life).

 

[Papa Lazarou]

yes i didnt intend to compare so much with SMAC but since they are the same genre and the same people who made civ3 i felt compelled to draw inspiration from it.



Re: Re:

1) thats the same sorta idea i had

2) i was thinking that maybe you wouldnt get the techs just the units. if you gave someone an ICBM fair enough theyd prolly learn how to build one easier but for game purposes i think it would unbalance too much.

3) i was thinking maybe you could just have your ally tell you where they plan to strike or you could choose a city to tell them where you're going to strike so you could concentrate your forces.

4) no what i meant (although i admit i didnt explain v. well) that if the civ agrees (or is made to agree as part of war reperations) the fog of war over their (the other civs) territory is lifted pretty much the way our own territory is always viewable - without the need of any units. what they see is what we see. the 'observer' will be like a spy or diplomate in the sense its not an actual unit.


also i forgot to add earlier that an extra point id like in negotiations is for the mini map to show you where the cities are as you hover over them because currently its very very complicated to find which cities id like to have off the enemy without coming out of negotiations, navigate and remember city name, go back to negotiations see if they agree, if not go back out of negotiations, navigate ad nauseum.

 

[God]

2) Maybe it the units that can be traded are restricted to the ones the AI can build. Ofcourse you ask why not build all yourself, but then the AI may have only a few of those units left and can't produce fast enough then you can give some of yours.