Age of Sail

[stormbind]

Please, for the love of God... give it a bigger, longer, age of sail...

And hinder collinisation before the age of sail. Vikings may have shown up in N.America but they didn't last long... collinisation needs a bigger influx of people than a longboat/tyreme can muster

 

[andrewgprv]

Please, for the love of God... give it a bigger, longer, age of sail...

And hinder collinisation before the age of sail. Vikings may have shown up in N.America but they didn't last long... collinisation needs a bigger influx of people than a longboat/tyreme can muster

Here Here

 

[warpstorm]

C3C has a bit longer Age of Sail than vanilla or PTW. To me, it feels about the right length.

 

[stormbind]

I don't have C3C

Historical evidence: HMS Victory was in front-line service for over 100 years, and by the time it showed up the early Galleons and things like HMS Pelican (aka Golden Hind) were long gone. Wooden sailing ships (defined as vessels that carry boats) can be split into several ages.

Was the complete age of sail (ships) from about 1400AD to 1950AD?

True story: At least one Royal Navy wooden sailing ship was sunk by torpedo!!

And the age of sail continued into Iron & Steel ships; called fully rigged. Early engines only replaced the use of ores, they didn't replace the use of sails. HMS Champion is an excellent example of a fully rigged Ironhull ship (Britain didn't go for Ironclad which was adding iron armour to a wooden frame).

The Civ3 Vanilla Ironclad is a river patrol boat, completely unsuitable for and highly unlikely to survive crossing oceans -- those things should sink in deep water, and history shows that they did, much like Tyremes.

 

[Evie]

Indeed.

And for the love of god - GALLEONS WERE NOT FRICKING TRANSPORTS (nor contemporary in any way, form or shape with frigates).

The Galleon was a late XVI, XVIIth century *warship*, far sleeker and deadlier than the average vessels of the era (of course with variation in construction : Spaniards built them more with boarding battle in mind ; Englishmen with agility and gunnery in mind).

The HMS Revenge, Francis Drake's flagship during the armada campaign, was a galleon - and certainly by no definition a transport.

Carracks were transports (and used by more than just portugal) (THESE, and not galleons, where what made up the "Heavy and lumbering" brigade in the armada).

Caravels were exploration ship and certainly NOT transports. They had little in the way of cargo capacity.

Civ fails abyssymaly to have any sort of accuracy whatsoever to the pre-modern (by modern I mean 20th century) navies the way it is set up.

 

[stormbind]

Very true. The Civopedia is even misleading, which is terrible considering the way some claim it is educational.

GALLEON Source: Wikipedia

A galleon was a large, multi-decked sailing vessel used primarily in Europe in the 16th to 18th centuries.

Galleons were a natural evolution of the Caravel and Carrack (also called "Nao"). A revolutionary lowering of the foc's'l (forecastle) gave an unprecedented level of stability in the water - leading to a faster, more maneuverable vessel.

The galleon was powered entirely by sail - usually 3-5 masts. They were used in both military and trade applications. In fact, galleons were so versatile that a single vessel may have been refitted for war- and peace-time roles several times during its lifespan.

Galleons were constructed from oak (for the keel), pine (for the masts) and various hardwoods for hull and decking. Hulls usually were constructed in carvel-building style. The expenses involved in galleon construction were enormous. Hundreds of expert tradesmen (including carpenters, pitch-melters, blacksmiths, coopers, shipwrights, etc.) worked day and night for months before a galleon was seaworthy. Due to this, galleons were often funded by groups of wealthy businessmen who pooled resources for a new ship. Therefore, most galleons were originally consigned for trade, although capture by rival nations usually put the galleon into military service.

The most common gun used aboard a galleon was the demi-culverin, although gun sizes up to demi-cannon were possible.

Due to extensive time often spent at sea and poor conditions on board, advanced rigging systems were developed so that the vessel could be sailed home by an active crew a fraction of the size aboard at departure.

The galleon was used up until the early 19th Century, when the clipper and man'o'war were developed, rendering the noble galleon obsolete.

 

[stormbind]

I'm not exactly sure what kind of ship the Golden Hind was. Here is a picture of a replica, and it's quite a small ship. Not sure how accurate this is because drawings of the original show cannons were mounted quite low on the back.

Moving from HMS Pelican to HMS Revenge. (source: seafarer.netfirms.com) In 1577, a new design of warship slid down the ways at Her Majesty’s Royal Dockyard at Chatham, England. The ship, the 400 ton REVENGE, carried 46 guns and was the first of the new race-built galleons.

In 1588, Revenge was Sir Francis Drake's flagship during the battles with the Spanish Armada but the ship's claim to fame rests with the action at the Azores in 1591 ... Out-gunned, out-fought, and out-numbered 53 to 1, the ship and her crew battled on though the night and into the next day ... Two of the Spanish ships were sunk, and the Revenge, battered and broken, with half the crew dead, staggered on. Fighting still. Finally, a desperate Sir Richard, gravely wounded himself, ordered the ship blown up ... saner heads prevailed and the ship, on assurances of good treatment, was surrendered to the Spanish - the only English ship so lost during the Elizabethan wars.

Below, HMS Pelican (The Golden Hind), Captained by Francis Drake.

 

[warpstorm]

Well, maybe you ought to pick up C3C, then. Arguing for a longer Age of Sail was one of my crusades in the development of C3C. It was more or less successful.

 

[stormbind]

Well, send me a copy!

I have heard primary source accounts about C3C, and the navies were improved (more time, and man-o-war is better) but there's still far to go...

 

[warpstorm]

Well, I've been playing it for two years now. It's good. Sure there are a few bugs, but all-in-all I think it is a better game than plain Civ3. (If you are a diety level player you may find it a bit easier than PTW, though).

 

[Verowin]

Please, for the love of God... give it a bigger, longer, age of sail...

And hinder collinisation before the age of sail. Vikings may have shown up in N.America but they didn't last long... collinisation needs a bigger influx of people than a longboat/tyreme can muster

The age of sail still needs far more improvement. The arguments you started this threads with are still valid for C3C.
See also the discussion on:"Have a Navy that means something... "

 

[c-mattio]

Does C3C means Conquests? Cos if it does, it really does nothing to improve the Age of Sail. Its still too short and lacks strategic relevance. It could really do with an overhaul for the next game.

 

[airrahul]

I agree!! We need a longer Age of Sail that really facilitates an expansion of global trade, just as it really did.

 

[WS78]

I concur.

 

[warpstorm]

Does C3C means Conquests? Cos if it does, it really does nothing to improve the Age of Sail. Its still too short and lacks strategic relevance. It could really do with an overhaul for the next game.

It's about twice as long as before and there's much more incentive to start it earlier. Since you can't trade maps till you get Navigation, the the first agressive seafarer will make a killing in map and tech trading, shooting way ahead. By putting Ironclads into their own tech, nobody will research it leaving sail as the only ships till destroyers.

 

[Philips beard]

Please, for the love of God... give it a bigger, longer, age of sail...

And hinder collinisation before the age of sail. Vikings may have shown up in N.America but they didn't last long... collinisation needs a bigger influx of people than a longboat/tyreme can muster

The vikings colonized Greenland and the british isles, Iceland too!
The only reason they couldnt colonize America properly was the large communication lines, the size of that continent, and weaponry not much better then the indians had. Norway could have been what Britain became, if they had firearms and Man of War-ships those days....

 

[Verowin]

what is your point?

 

[airrahul]

Verowin, we should be able to simulate the fact that sea travel prior to the Age of Sail was very arduous and not necessarily of the sort one could settle a continent far away from your own empire with. I mean to say that the Vikings would have had to use a lot of resources just to get a substantial settlement onto the North American mainland whereas later on, the Spanish, Portuguese, English, and French were able to do so far more easily.

 

[Verowin]

Verowin, we should be able to simulate the fact that sea travel prior to the Age of Sail was very arduous and not necessarily of the sort one could settle a continent far away from your own empire with. I mean to say that the Vikings would have had to use a lot of resources just to get a substantial settlement onto the North American mainland whereas later on, the Spanish, Portuguese, English, and French were able to do so far more easily.

I do not undertsand your point? Didn't the viking have sailing ships? When did the age of sail started?
The importance of the maritime world is not reflected in the game. How do you thinkt he Romans communicated with their settelments in England? There are scientist who suggest that the Phoeniciers might have had a trade route with the civ's of central and south america (egyptian mummies with traces of coke in their hair and tabacco leaves in the wrappings).

 

[airrahul]

Verowin, I can understand what you are saying. But perhaps we should make it harder to explore such great distances in the early ages and to carry so many units in the early ages than in the later ages when Navigation comes about. After all, the cost in economic and people terms for the Vikings to settle Iceland and for a short while Greenland was far more than the cost of Spain to setup its New World empire simply because of technology advances. Until the caravel, it should be something like one settler unit fills an entire galley. Also, there should be far more variety with ships. More units would be nice. Furthermore, we should model how a ship cannot lose sight of land for more than a certain amount of time due to a need for water and food.

As for when the Age of Sail started, I'd say most of us really mean the Age of Exploration with Portugal's first voyages down the coast of Africa or perhaps further back to Cheng Ho's fleet setting out from China and reaching the West coast of Africa.